kejemere Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi everyone, Here is what I have going on. I'm wiring a new house right now and the builders are going to install a large window behind the kitchen sink. The window will be flush with the top of the counter and their will be no back splash. To the left of the sink, I have roughly 4.5' of no wall to install outletts. How am I going to meet the code with this problem? I have room to mount one in the cabnit just to the right of the sink, then a dishwasher is in the way and a lazy susan in the corner. The area that this house is being built has no inspection. But I want to do everything to code. Might the builders be breaking a code by not having a back splash? Thank you for all comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLRambo Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 If you're asking if codes address backsplash's on cabinets - they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonTx Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Trendy builders here put outlets up under the cabinets. Just make sure the cabinets aren't too high. 18-20 inches depending upon which flavor of code you want. Donald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarga Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Thank you for coming to us for help, we will do what we can to assist you, however some additional information would be helpful. Where do you live? Do you know what code(S) have been adopted in your area. I have copied this from the 2003 International Residential Code (IRC) I will try to post the diagram as a photo. E3801.3.2 Limitations. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not less than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in Section E3801.3. Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in Section E3801.3. A small appliance branch circuit shall not serve more than one kitchen. E3801.4 Countertop receptacles. In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for counter spaces shall be installed in accordance with Sections E3801.4.1 through E3801.4.5. (See Figure E3801.4.) For SI: 1 inch = 25.4 mm, 1 foot = 304.8 mm. E3801.4.1 Wall counter space. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall counter space 12 inches (305 mm) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 24 inches (610 mm), measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space. E3801.4.2 Island counter spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each island counter space with a long dimension of 24 inches (610 mm) or greater and a short dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) or greater. E3801.4.3 Peninsular counter space. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular counter space with a long dimension of 24 inches (610 mm) or greater and a short dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge. E3801.4.4 Separate spaces. Countertop spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of Sections E3801.4.1, E3801.4.2 and E3801.4.3. E3801.4.5 Receptacle outlet location. Receptacle outlets shall be located not more than 20 inches (508 mm) above the countertop. Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in a face-up position in the work surfaces or countertops. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets. Exception: Receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 12 inches (305 mm) below the countertop in construction designed for the physically impaired and for island and peninsular countertops where the countertop is flat across its entire surface and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 20 inches (508 mm) above the countertop, such as in an overhead cabinet. Receptacles mounted below the countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 6 inches (152 mm) beyond its support base. E3801.5 Appliance outlets. Appliance receptacle outlets installed for specific appliances, such as laundry equipment, shall be installed within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the intended location of the appliance. I hope this helps. This code is probably not in effect in your area,as most jurisdiction have not adopted it yet, but it is a place to start. Download Attachment: Kitchen-Outlets1.jpg 6.1 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kejemere Posted May 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Thanks for the info, I live in WI and yes we have NEC codes to follow and WI code, I will post a pic of the kitchen lay out and let you guys see what I actually have to deal with, that would be much easier than me trying to explain. Tonight when I get home I will post. Thank you again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Warga, Do you have the IRC on disk, or is it available online somewhere? I have it in 3 ring binder form, but obviously you can't copy and paste from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Originally posted by kejemere Hi everyone, Here is what I have going on. I'm wiring a new house right now and the builders are going to install a large window behind the kitchen sink. The window will be flush with the top of the counter and their will be no back splash. To the left of the sink, I have roughly 4.5' of no wall to install outletts. Sounds like an awful design. Every time they wash the dishes, they'll spatter-up the window. It'll be a pain to keep clean. How am I going to meet the code with this problem? I have room to mount one in the cabnit just to the right of the sink, then a dishwasher is in the way and a lazy susan in the corner. If there're no cabinets above to mount the receptacle outlets to, it'll be difficult. You could mount boxes on conduit stalks near the back of the countertop. That'd be attractive . . . not. Or you could talk to the countertop guy about building little Mayan pyramids along the back of the counter to house your receptacles. If he's got some imagination, it could look good and fulfill the requirements. If there's a buyer at this stage, be sure to get him involved. The area that this house is being built has no inspection. But I want to do everything to code. Might the builders be breaking a code by not having a back splash No. He's just making it difficult for you to comply. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarga Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Warga, Do you have the IRC on disk, or is it available on line somewhere? I have it in 3 ring binder form, but obviously you can't copy and paste from it. Yes I have the 2003 IRC (Folio Views) It is searchable and printable, and can be copied and pasted. I have the 2003 ICC complete set. This is all Adobe and not searchable. I also have the 1999 & 2002 NEC as Adobe and the 2002 NEC comments handbook that is searchable. Let some builder try to tell me that it is not a code item, I dare him.[] I am taking a IRC class on June 6 in Tucson and will probably take the 2003 Combination inspector exam soon after that. I just ordered the 2003 IRC book since I can use it for the test but they wont let me use my laptop.[:-banghead] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Hockstein Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Sounds like someone messed up on the window spec or installation. Is there room to raise the window? Can the window be pulled and replaced with a shorter window? I have never seen a window sill behind a sink at the same level as the countertop in a new house. In the houses that we design, we typically spec a 3'-5" high window unit above the sink if the head height is 6'-8". With a 36" counter height, it allows for a 3" clearance between the countertop and window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 That is something possibly profound. Is the window a design feature or a mistake? I got the sense that it was a design feature. I can imagine all kinds of problems w/ a window as the backsplash behind the sink. In every kitchen I've ever worked on (or in), this area is always the funkiest & hardest to clean. For the design to work, you would have to have very specific fixtures, countertop material, joinery, & window detailing, or it could easily come off as a crude component of the design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 I once built a kitchen with a window flush with the sink. Had a concrete counter with a window glass that actually was set into a "store front" piece of alum, then a neoprene gasket between alum and concrete. I liked it so much i kept the house until i re-married then make a fateful decision - woman or kitchen. Kept the woman. I am not aware of any code here in Michigan and I built this house on Beaver Island on our common border. Go for it and enjoy your reflection in the window when it is dark outside. PS do you have runnin' water in Wisc? les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kejemere Posted May 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 The Idea behind the window being flush came from the contractors. The house is being built for a couple in IL, and they must have aproved the decision with the builders? I'm contracted out by the builders, so I have to work with them. I like the idea about "building little Mayan pyramids" I will try and talk to the kitchen designers and see what they can come up with. I also agree that they will be cleaning the windows much more than needed. I did not get a chance to scan the drawing in. When I get something figured out and the install finished. I will post a pic. Thanks again everyone!!! KEJEMERE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcramer Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 You need a tombstone style surface mounted receptacle box. They are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Thanks Mark. I keep referring to them as pedestal outlets. Tombstone was the word I was looking for. NORM SAGE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kejemere Posted May 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2004 Mark, Were should I look for tombstone style surface mounted receptacle box. I did a quick search on Google and really did not find anything. Do you have a online store you like, or anyone? Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcramer Posted May 22, 2004 Report Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by kejemere Mark, Were should I look for tombstone style surface mounted receptacle box. I did a quick search on Google and really did not find anything. Do you have a online store you like, or anyone? Thanks again Try calling an electrical supply house. Your electrician should be able to track them down for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottpat Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 What is a "tombstone" style receptacle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcramer Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Originally posted by Scottpat What is a "tombstone" style receptacle? Look in your Electrical Code Check at the drawing of an island counter top. P. 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottpat Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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