Tradesman to evaluate

[Les]

Chris,

I do not hesitate to specify a particular tradesperson. The problem is things like install GFCI in bathroom does not necessarily take a licensed master electrician. I am willing to take a chance and tell the client that a GFCI should be installed in the bathroom. Instruction typically are in four or five languages, so read 'em and do it.

This type discussion always goes into liability. I see the initial liability starting when you advertise as a licensed certified inspector with forty years experience and all the other related puffery. As I read hundreds of inspection reports and listen to dis-satisfied clients and attys I can't help wondering why a person would do this job with two weeks training and a huge ego.

I often cross the line of professionalism and just plain tell it like it is - "The roof is a pos and you are going to have to replace it." I do not offer "licensed contractor" unless asked.

Kurt's comic book report style is what most should use. I use it for all legal work and commercial stuff. Ya ya I sometimes follow the ASTM standards and 99% of the time follow ASHI standards. When I don't comply with those standards, I quickly and freely tell them I am off on a tangent. Mostly I piss off other inspectors and have a very loyal past client base.

When I look at the users of this forum, the old guys seem to favor the blunt to the point style and they have been around for decades, so why not emulate them? I do not suffer from a good reputation with sellers of real estate nor am I popular amongst many other inspectors. You could take all the money I have paid to clients and stick it in your ear and still hear a mouse fart. I have paid thousands for mistakes I clearly made, always voluntarily - I was wrong or made a mistake!

This business is not rocket science, but it is building science and very few folks understand that.

My attitude is getting a little frosty as time passes. I love the business and buildings. I admire and respect the people that constantly question what we do. All this in hopes of my chosen line of work getting some real respect.

Not every person can be a home inspector, regardless of intellect, color of eyes or gender. You must know what you know and be able to stay objective. Respect your own gut feelings and opinion and you will find others doing likewise.

I still think I can walk on water, even while drying my pantlegs.

[Les]

Randy,

I would write there is water dripping through the ceiling when I ran the water in the tub on the second floor. I can't see where it is coming from. Likely a broken pipe or fitting.

Or

I could write about soaked electrical wires, broken tub, broken drain line, soaked insulation, lead baseed paint, asbestos drywall compound, mold, mildew, ability of ceiling joist to hold all this water, damaged fasteners, damaged floor tile, slip and fall hazard, damaged first floor carpet, vermiculite, dis-honest sellers, etc. If pressed or asked, I'd tell them most plumbers will tear stuff out and find leak and fix it. Then you will need someone to repair plumber's damage and life will be good.

If you come into the inspection with the right frame of mind, you only need report the problem and rely on your wit guile and charm to effectively communicate.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt

In my experience if you include in your recommendation that the tradesman is to evaluate and repair as neededid="blue">, then you're asking for trouble.

I think it's safer to become an expert, and avoid making recommendations to evaluate (unless destructive discovery is absolutely neededid="blue">), and just tell the client to get it fixed.

What's your opinion on throwing it over the wall for someone else to make the call?

Chris, Oregon

That's the kind of question that doesn't have a yes or no answer.

Many inspectors, many inspection schools and, especially, many franchises think that our stock answer to any issue should be to refer it to a competent, licensed, expert, experienced (continue inserting as many modifiers as possible to cover your ass) tradesman for further evaluation and correction as necessary. That kind of approach to inspecting is lazy and embarrassing and is the product of little, fearful minds. It doesn't serve the customers' interests and, ultimately, it hurts the individual inspector and the home inspection profession.

However each of us sometimes encounters situations where we can't make satisfactory evaluations in the context of a home inspection. In those cases I think the best thing we can do is recommend that someone with the necessary skill set come in and pick up where we left off. I prefer to avoid this kind of punting whenever possible.

That said, I'd hate to see a newer inspector get in trouble because he bravely tried to make a call that he wasn't qualified to make. We each need to know our capabilities and our limitations and remember that every house is different. (BTW, boilerplate-laden software doesn't serve this need very well.) The more you learn, the more you know and the less you'll need to punt.

Learn more.

Punt less.

Avoid boilerplate.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jerry Simon]

OK Les. What would you write?

I ain't Les, but I would write something along the lines you wrote. "Have a plumber diagnose and eliminate the source or sources of leakage, and have any hidden moisture damage found addressed as/if necessary."

Still further evaluation, though; however, I detest that phrase as much as most do. Further investigation, further evaluation...whatever.

Worse, in my mind, is the phrase *appears to be*. Had a veteran inspector teaching a classs tell us we should write/report "the water heater appeared to be backdrafting". I suggested that meant he wasn't sure if it was backdrafting. No, he was sure, but said only a qualified heating contractor or some such could/should make that call. Needed further evaluation. I almost puked.

I asked him if he reports that a receptacle *appears* to be wired with reversed-polarity. He thought that was different for a goofy reason still only known to him.

[Jim Katen]

. . . Had a veteran inspector teaching a classs tell us we should write/report "the water heater appeared to be backdrafting". I suggested that meant he wasn't sure if it was backdrafting. No, he was sure, but said only a qualified heating contractor or some such could/should make that call. Needed further evaluation. I almost puked. . .

Sometimes there isn't enough vomit in the world . . .

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[ghentjr]

Originally posted by caryseidner

Chalfen School? What's that?

Mel Chalfen was an oldy timer ASHI member from Mass. who was the epitome of professionalism and had very strong ideas about what our profession should be. Always showed up in a jacket and bow tie. But try as he could, (and many others as well,) proper training of professional inspectors never became a reality. Those who knew Mel know what he was like and what he stood for. If he could have waved a stick to make it happen we would all be taking at least a two year college course in our profession before we could be licensed, or allowed to inspect.

On the main thread topic, the astounding amount of "idaknows" in our profession is a real bone of contention with me. I did not know it all, but I knew much of it and I still continue to learn even though I am retired. If it was broken I told them to fix it. If it leaked I told them to fix it. If it moved and was not supposed to move I told them to shoot it then have it fixed. HI's need to know more than they apparently do. I like the analogy about the Mechanic. You cannot sell yourself as a professional (especially for paltry fees) and then say it needs further evaluation.

Someone mentioned a 30 year gas furnace. It would have been reported by me as needing replacement even if someone told me in writing the exchanger was not cracked. Everything has a life span and Murphy's law says that if you wrote the furnace up as old but functional it would become dysfunctional the day of the closing.

[newguy]

When you can show me a journeyman's ticket for each of the trades I will agree with you, untill then I agree let the exoerts with the certification evaluate the areas that need repair or attention.

Originally posted by randynavarro

I've always thought punting to someone else to "evaluate" was a cop out, even when I didn't know any better.

The more I learn about this profession and what it is we're supposed to be doing, the more I realize that we should be the experts.

I can't recall one situation where deferring the issue to someone else has resulted in a successful outcome for the client - at least that I can recall at this moment.

The conflict arises when I don't know as much about a particular issue to make a definitive assessment. I'm not less of an inspector, I'm just no the "expert."

[Les]

Gordon,

I just cringe calling you the "newguy". You are only the new guy once!

Well, the problem some of us have those "cards" and some don't. My favorite card/license is my CSST pocket card - given after two helpings of rubber chicken and much kibitzing, they allowed me to take the test. 100% and now I am an expert even ' tho I am not real sure what CSST stands for. Oh ya, I do have a couple of real deal licenses, so maybe I should be talking like a tradesperson.

Check out Jeff R, he may have a couple dozen cards and there are times when I just get nutty with him. My point is if you don't know what lefty loosie and righty tighty is then you should not be a home inspector.

[Chris Bernhardt]

When you can show me a journeyman's ticket for each of the trades I will agree with you, until then I agree let the experts with the certification evaluate the areas that need repair or attention.

Gordon, I don't know about your neck of the woods, but here I have yet to find an electrician who knew the NEC as it applies to residential as well as I know it and Jim Katen has forgotten more than I know on the subject.

The same is true for plumbers, HVAC contractors and even structural engineers, etc.

In the past just about every time I recommended a roofer to evaluate a roof, it either came back it was fine (with all of the problems) or needed to be replaced. So what's the point?

Jim Morrison is always telling me to do what Jim Katen, Mike O'Handley, Kurt Mitenbuler, Scott Patterson, Chad Fabry, and Les VanAlstine do. You don't think these guys are experts?

For the most part, my experience with tradesmen are that they are primarily installers. Look on any trade forum and you'll find the majority of them defending their practice of not following installation instructions, industry standards and codes.

Check out Michael Byrnes tile forum on JLC. He's always hammering on these goofballs who can't stop and read the damn installation instructions put out by the manufacturers.

Chris, Oregon

[hausdok]

Originally posted by ghentjr

Originally posted by caryseidner

Chalfen School? What's that?

Mel Chalfen was an oldy timer ASHI member from Mass. who was the epitome of professionalism and had very strong ideas about what our profession should be. Always showed up in a jacket and bow tie. But try as he could, (and many others as well,) proper training of professional inspectors never became a reality. Those who knew Mel know what he was like and what he stood for. If he could have waved a stick to make it happen we would all be taking at least a two year college course in our profession before we could be licensed, or allowed to inspect.

On the main thread topic, the astounding amount of "idaknows" in our profession is a real bone of contention with me. I did not know it all, but I knew much of it and I still continue to learn even though I am retired. If it was broken I told them to fix it. If it leaked I told them to fix it. If it moved and was not supposed to move I told them to shoot it then have it fixed. HI's need to know more than they apparently do. I like the analogy about the Mechanic. You cannot sell yourself as a professional (especially for paltry fees) and then say it needs further evaluation.

Someone mentioned a 30 year gas furnace. It would have been reported by me as needing replacement even if someone told me in writing the exchanger was not cracked. Everything has a life span and Murphy's law says that if you wrote the furnace up as old but functional it would become dysfunctional the day of the closing.

Hi John,

Mel and I never met face-to-face, but one day back around 2001 he sent me an email and asked me to call him about something; I forget now what it was. After that, we spent many hours talking to each other on the phone about various home inspection topics and the subject dear to both of our hearts - the idea of a true college exclusively for home inspectors and building scientists. When he died in August of 2007 I felt the loss almost as badly as when my father passed away. He was a real gentle soul and a true inspiration to me. A couple of years ago, I got myself all charged up about the school idea again and decided that if I ever got it started that I wanted to call it Chalfen Technical Institute (CTI). Not long before he died, Mel called me to say that his family had asked that I not call the school that should it ever come to fruition.

Now that he's passed away, I can't think of any better way to honor his lifetime commitment to education and excellence but I don't know if his family still could/would want to prevent me from calling it Chalfen Technical Institute. Guess we'll cross that bridge when/if we ever come to it.

Re: the 30-year old gas furnace.

I would have written something like:

REPLACE THE ANCIENT GAS FURNACE: This gas furnace is pretty old; around here, these things have an average service life of only about twenty years from the date of installation. Even if you have it checked out now, and an HVAC tech tells you that it's in perfect working order, there's no way that anyone can predict how much longer it's going to remain serviceable. Heck, for all I know, it might have failed since I left the site and began writing this report.

I recommend you get it replaced now; if you don't, you should not be surprised if it fails the day after closing, on the coldest night of the year or one day makes you sick when it begins leaking carbon monoxide into your home.

We miss you, Mel!

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Les]

Please see Mike O's post above re: furnace.

See, he just wrote what he would say. That is all folks want. Your opinion is quite valuable. If it is not valuable then don't give it.

[kurt]

Originally posted by newguy

When you can show me a journeyman's ticket for each of the trades I will agree with you, until then I agree let the experts with the certification evaluate the areas that need repair or attention.

I just finished up figuring out a job that 3 different licensed union plumbers, 2 foundation repair contractors, and 2 different union tile setters couldn't figure out. Why?

Not because these guys weren't competent tradespeople. They are. What they lack are analytical skills, and the ability to think in a linear and logical fashion. They are not trained that way. They are trained to install what's in the blueprint.

Sure, I know a couple plumbers, electricians, and carpenters that are competent in analytical work, but only a couple out of thousands.

Considering we all have jobs because the experts with the journeymans ticket can't seem to get it right, I'd say referring the problem to a journeyman for analysis is goofy. I suppose there's a certain logic to it for folks unfamiliar with the problems we face, but for folks that have been doing the job a long time, the journeyman is the last person I'd recommend for figuring out reality.

[Chad Fabry]

Jim Morrison is always telling me to do what Jim K, Mike O., Kurt M., Scott P., Chad F., and Les V. do. You don't think these guys are experts?

Chris, please use my last name when you include it in that group. I want it to appear in a Google search.

The way I see it, home inspectors should be light construction experts with an ability to communicate with people who aren't light construction experts in a way that the non-expert understands the construction issue. If you can't, or won't provide that service, you should find another profession.

Telling a non expert that there are some curling shingles doesn't provide a service. Telling the non expert that curling shingles indicates the roof is at the end of its life offers more information, it's helpful. People don't hire us to obfuscate the truth by hiding it under a contractor's skirt; they hire us to be frank and blunt with the truth.

On a different subject. It is absolutely impossible to teach someone to be an HI in two short weeks. It's even harder when the State gets involved and dictates a curriculum.

It is possible though to teach folks how to learn to be a home inspector in two weeks. A few handfuls of the people that passed through the classes where I had the PowerPoint remote hang around here. I promise you that none of them use the phrases "appears to be", "this inspector observed" and "the skylights were not present".

[ghentjr]

Originally posted by hausdok

Originally posted by ghentjr

Originally posted by caryseidner

Chalfen School? What's that?

Not long before he died, Mel called me to say that his family had asked that I not call the school that should it ever come to fruition.

We miss you, Mel!

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

If he didn't want it then, he probably still feels the same way. Your thoughts mean more than monuments.