blazenut Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Does it look like this BW water heater is only being used as a storage tank from the boiler? I havent seen one hooked up quite like this before. Download Attachment: water heater 1.jpg 1000.76 KB Click to Enlarge 43.21 KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazenut Posted October 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Is this an indirect water heater setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 It's a summer/winter hook-up on the boiler, that generates the domestic hot water and circulates to a storage tank. That set-up is extremely common in our area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazenut Posted October 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 So is that different than indirect water heater? In this setup the water that the bradford white tank is holding actually comes from the boiler, and not just heats the water that is in the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 So is that different than indirect water heater? In this setup the water that the bradford white tank is holding actually comes from the boiler, and not just heats the water that is in the tank? There's a coil in the boiler that heats the domestic water. In that set up, it looks like the water in the tank continually circulates to/through the coil inside the boiler. An indirect hot water system circulates heated water from a separate zone on the boiler to/through a coil inside a tank. Heat is exchanged to the domestic water that surrounds the coil in the tank. On another note, there might be a couple issues with that boiler installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazenut Posted October 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 What might those issues be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghentjr Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Why is there a bypass connection on the boiler feed and return lines? Why are they using the internal coil to heat the water tank instead of using a zone from the boiler feed? The water feed valve setup at the upper rear looks kind of hinkey. It looks like a manual fill and should be an automatic fill for a hydronic system. The reduction in size of the hot water pipe feeds to the water heater from the coil reduces the rated temps for the heater. This does not look like a summer winter set up as the boiler has to be running 24/7 to provide heat to the water heater. Not too sure about the hook up on the prv. There is no (visible) shut-off from the coil feed to the water heater. There is no (visible) shut-off from the water heater to the house. But without being there I really can't make a thorough evaluation. P.S. If the water is fed to both the boiler and the water heater from the same pipe through the one valve there is a possibility of cross contamination with boiler water and domestic water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ghent Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 O.K. I threw a bunch of stuff into the mix for the picture. The most important thing, one that I did not mention, I will describe here. We all know how a domestic water coil in a boiler works, right? (Please god, say yes) Cold supply water enters one side of the coil and comes out hot and goes to the domestic supply. That is a continuous flow of water. It's a simple "gozinta" "gozouta" situation. The coil, immersed in the boiler water, provides the heat. One usually suspects the coil has become inefficient when there is an indirect water heater present. We all together on this? Look at the picture. The water heater has two pipes attached to the domestic coil. Supply and Return. Gozinta, gozouta. These water heaters are normally tapped into the boiler. The boiler receives a continuous supply of water from an automatic feed so the boiler pressure stays constant. The circulator on the water heater is tied to a thermostat that regulates circulation of the boiler water as needed to heat the domestic supply, which is on top of the heater. Cold water in, circulated through a coil, picking up heat and coming out hot. The way this system is piped cannot work for long if it is even working now. There is no supply of water to recirculate through the boiler coil. Whatever amount of water that was in the pipes is not being replaced as it dissipates. Eventually this water will compress and will not be present and could lead to a steam condition that may burst a fitting. To try to be more clear, the indirect heater circulator is recirculating a small amount of water through a boiler coil, without any form of make-up water. The only water supply I can see in the photo is on the the boiler supply (top) at the rear. This whole setup needs to be redone by a plumber and it needs to be done soon. If anyone cannot follow the above then please let me know. Take a good hard look at the plumbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Why is there a bypass connection on the boiler feed and return lines?A bypass is used to either raise the temperature of the return water or to reduce the temperature of the water heading out of the system. What the bypass does depends which side of the bypass the circulator is located (a "boiler bypass" or a "system bypass"). When inspecting a bypass, it has to be determine why it was needed and then if it's installed correctly. Finally any bypass needs a balancing valve to properly set the flow rate/ temperature. Why are they using the internal coil to heat the water tank instead of using a zone from the boiler feed? Because it's not an indirect water heating tank and it would cross boiler water with potable water if they used a zone from the boiler feed. It looks like a manual fill and should be an automatic fill for a hydronic system. I don't know of any actual requirement for an automatic fill. This does not look like a summer winter set up as the boiler has to be running 24/7 to provide heat to the water heater.The internal coil in the boiler is the "summer/winter hook-up". The owners weren't happy with it and a had a plumber add the tank. The water is still heated by the summer/winter hook-up. There is no supply of water to recirculate through the boiler coil. Whatever amount of water that was in the pipes is not being replaced as it dissipates. Eventually this water will compress and will not be present and could lead to a steam condition that may burst a fitting. To try to be more clear, the indirect heater circulator is recirculating a small amount of water through a boiler coil, without any form of make-up water. The only water supply I can see in the photo is on the the boiler supply (top) at the rear.It doesn't need "make-up water". It's not a heating zone loop. Its the domestic hot water circulating between the internal coil and the Bradford White tank. The hot water circulation piping is connected at a "T" near the top of the water heater and also at the water heater drain valve. BW allows the return circulation through the drain valve fitting. "Blazenut" or "Max Power" or whatever your real name is, There's also likely issues with the flue connector. I don't see a draft-control damper. It looks like there's a "T" with a cap right at the chimney thimble. It looks like corrosion and pinholes at the cap. It may be that the chimney flue was likely built for a coal-fired system and may be oversized for this boiler. Click to Enlarge 7.89 KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghentjr Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Why is there a bypass connection on the boiler feed and return lines?A bypass is used to either raise the temperature of the return water or to reduce the temperature of the water heading out of the system. What the bypass does depends which side of the bypass the circulator is located (a "boiler bypass" or a "system bypass"). When inspecting a bypass, it has to be determine why it was needed and then if it's installed correctly. Finally any bypass needs a balancing valve to properly set the flow rate/ temperature.No balancing valve, or any valve is visible. Bypass not needed. Why are they using the internal coil to heat the water tank instead of using a zone from the boiler feed? Because it's not an indirect water heating tank and it would cross boiler water with potable water if they used a zone from the boiler feed.It is an indirect. Both lines from the coil go to the bottom of the tank where there is an inlet and an outlet. You cannot continue to circulate water in a closed loop without adding water periodically. It looks like a manual fill and should be an automatic fill for a hydronic system. I don't know of any actual requirement for an automatic fill. This does not look like a summer winter set up as the boiler has to be running 24/7 to provide heat to the water heater.The internal coil in the boiler is the "summer/winter hook-up". The owners weren't happy with it and a had a plumber add the tank. The water is still heated by the summer/winter hook-up.Where is the electrical power to the summer function of the tank? The BX on top is for the circulator control, not to heat water. There is no supply of water to recirculate through the boiler coil. Whatever amount of water that was in the pipes is not being replaced as it dissipates. Eventually this water will compress and will not be present and could lead to a steam condition that may burst a fitting. To try to be more clear, the indirect heater circulator is recirculating a small amount of water through a boiler coil, without any form of make-up water. The only water supply I can see in the photo is on the the boiler supply (top) at the rear.It doesn't need "make-up water". It's not a heating zone loop. Its the domestic hot water circulating between the internal coil and the Bradford White tank. The hot water circulation piping is connected at a "T" near the top of the water heater and also at the water heater drain valve. BW allows the return circulation through the drain valve fitting.Does not look like a T. Look behind where there another pipe coming from the manual valve. What you think is a T appears to be a reduction fitting. "Blazenut" or "Max Power" or whatever your real name is,There's also likely issues with the flue connector. I don't see a draft-control damper. It looks like there's a "T" with a cap right at the chimney thimble. It looks like corrosion and pinholes at the cap. It may be that the chimney flue was likely built for a coal-fired system and may be oversized for this boiler. Click to Enlarge 7.89 KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghentjr Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Having spent my 30 years of inspecting in the home of hydronic heat and steam heat I think I am well enough versed in the products related to this discussion. The link below is a bw indirect water heater. Note the two bottom fittings. Compare it to the set up in the photograph. The only difference is where they installed the prv. An indirect is not capable of summer winter without an electric power supply, which this unit does not seem to have. http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2. ... duct_id=59 The link below is an electric water heater which would be the product used in a summer winter setup. The picture provided by blazenut is NOT an electric water heater. http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2. ... duct_id=17 Blazenut should have written down the model number of the tank which would eliminate our guessing. But my two cents is on an indirect, installed improperly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Having spent my 30 years of inspecting in the home of hydronic heat and steam heat I think I am well enough versed in the products related to this discussion. The link below is a bw indirect water heater. Note the two bottom fittings. Compare it to the set up in the photograph. The only difference is where they installed the prv. An indirect is not capable of summer winter without an electric power supply, which this unit does not seem to have. http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2. ... duct_id=59 The link below is an electric water heater which would be the product used in a summer winter setup. The picture provided by blazenut is NOT an electric water heater. http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2. ... duct_id=17 Blazenut should have written down the model number of the tank which would eliminate our guessing. But my two cents is on an indirect, installed improperly. ghentjr, Look at the picture Blazenut posted again. Cant you see that there are 2 element covers? If it was a BW indirect, there would only be 1 cover - for the aquastat. Cant you see that there is no boiler supply fitting at the middle of the tank? If it was a BW indirect, the supply fitting would be right below the top element cover (if there were 2 covers). The return would be near the bottom of the tank, not shown in his picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I just looked at the picture in the link you posted. Thanks for illustrating my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspectorjoe Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 John, I'm thinking some of the confusion stems from the difference in terminology used in our different regions. Around here, a domestic coil being used as the sole source of domestic hot water is referred to as a summer/winter hookup. I'm guessing that in your area, a domestic coil used to heat water in the winter, in conjunction with an electric water heater used in the summer is called a summer/winter hookup. It's just a standard electric water heater being used only as a storage tank. As you pointed out, there's no power source to the elements. Plus, if the elements are active, I can't imagine anyone placing pipes right in front of the covers. Also, I don't see any isolation valves. If this was being used to heat the water with the elements in the summer, you wouldn't want the supply water passing through the coil in the dormant boiler. The cold water would likely create condensation problems at the boiler. I wish there was a picture of the bottom of the water heater. I still can't get my mind around what the water paths are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ghent Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 John, I'm thinking some of the confusion stems from the difference in terminology used in our different regions. Around here, a domestic coil being used as the sole source of domestic hot water, is referred to as a summer/winter hookup. I'm guessing that in your area, a domestic coil used to heat water in the winter, in conjunction with an electric water heater used in the summer is called a summer/winter hookup. It's just a standard electric water heater being used only as a storage tank. As you pointed out, there's no power source to the elements. Plus, if the elements are active, I can imagine anyone placing pipes right in front of the covers. Also, I don't see any isolation valves. If this was being used to heat the water with the elements in the summer, you wouldn't want the supply water passing through the coil in the dormant boiler. The cold water would likely create condensation problems at the boiler. I wish there was a picture of the bottom of the water heater. I still can't get my mind around what the water paths are. Granted that there are two element covers, but what are the two pipes going to? I have an indirect that has three bottom connections. Boiler water in/out and cold domestic water in. Blazenuts needs to step in with more pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ghent Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Thanks to my piqued interest in this I found the following: The tank is a solar storage tank designed with electric backup. (two covers) Unfortunately, it is being used as an indirect water heater. And, unless blazenuts comes up with some additional pictures showing where the circulated water is coming from, then I stand by my statement that it is not properly installed. http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2. ... uct_id=169 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Now, This is the kind of spirited and educational technical discussion that we designed TIJ to be used for, lo those many (7) years ago. Keep it up guys! ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Thanks to my piqued interest in this I found the following: The tank is a solar storage tank designed with electric backup. (two covers) http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2. ... uct_id=169 Nope. The top fitting on the tank, for the supply from the solar collector, would clearly be in blazenut's picture. I really don't think what's in his picture is any Bradford White product that has a heat exchanger coil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Why is there a bypass connection on the boiler feed and return lines?A bypass is used to either raise the temperature of the return water or to reduce the temperature of the water heading out of the system. What the bypass does depends which side of the bypass the circulator is located (a "boiler bypass" or a "system bypass"). When inspecting a bypass, it has to be determine why it was needed and then if it's installed correctly. Finally any bypass needs a balancing valve to properly set the flow rate/ temperature.No balancing valve, or any valve is visible. Bypass not needed.We know there's no balancing valve on the bypass, that's why I explained it. Please explain to us how you can tell from the picture that "Bypass not needed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazenut Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Im sorry but i dont have anymore pictures. The clean out at the bottom of the unit was connected to one of the copper pipes going down the side of the BW tank. I told the buyers that i had never seen a hookup like this and that they should hire a plumber/HVAC for further evaluation. Next time ill take more pictures. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghentjr Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Well, I dont know the year of the installation. But my experience is that a hydronic system doesn't need a bypass between the supply and return. Why would it? The boiler temp is controlled by other means. The fact is simply, that there are two pipes going to the heater from the coil on the boiler. And you and I can piss on the pole all we want, but without blazenut giving us a better picture we have no good argument. My water heater, as stated, has three connections on the bottom. The pictures I sent were meant to be indicative of the product but styles change from year to year. You need to give me a good explanation about how a domestic coil can feed the heater without a makeup supply of water. And to Mike: As well as this being a spirited debate, it is indicative of how inspectors get paid for stuff they don't know about. Regardless of the outcome of our discussion, blazenuts didn't have a clue. All of the discussion here would be moot if the inspector thought it through from top to bottom with some GOOD BASIC knowledge of hydronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence McCann Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Regardless of the outcome of our discussion, blazenuts didn't have a clue. All of the discussion here would be moot if the inspector thought it through from top to bottom with some GOOD BASIC knowledge of hydronics. That was a bit below the belt. I've been around the block a few times but still haven't seen everything there is in regards to HVAC/R/P. Take the high road and be a mentor - it's not hard to do and very rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazenut Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 So, are we here to brag about how we (you) have spent our entire lives learning everything there is to know about everything, or is this a place to learn? This site has been very helpful to me, i wish i had been born with all of this knowledge but this is a process for me and all other young inspectors out there. I hope you feel better now terence. Do you drive a really big truck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazenut Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 sorry, i didnt mean you terence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Well, I dont know the year of the installation. But my experience is that a hydronic system doesn't need a bypass between the supply and return. Why would it? Uh, you're kidding right? If not, Google "boiler bypass" and "system bypass". As well as this being a spirited debate, it is indicative of how inspectors get paid for stuff they don't know about. Regardless of the outcome of our discussion, blazenuts didn't have a clue. All of the discussion here would be moot if the inspector thought it through from top to bottom with some GOOD BASIC knowledge of hydronics. I think I should point out that this is coming from the guy that has to try to justify an inaccurate statement by prefacing it with how long he's been inspecting. 30 years is a long time, but remember this gem he wrote about slate roofs: If the house is over 50 years old the underlayment is probably deteriorated and that is what keeps the roof from leaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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