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Kewl! That's what we're here for. OT - OF!!! M.

Terry wrote: Yeah it does. But don't get the idea I'm trying to shut you down. I'm not. I just want folks to recognize that, if we don't know the capabilities of those whom we address here, our criticisms are not always founded. Terry, you know that not all schools are turning out capable inspectors. Besides, there are people capable of learning the business without any schooling. That's been proved time and again. What's more important is how we shepherd these new folks after they are already on the ground doing inspections. Ask yourself why so many people come into the business and leave every year. Is it because it is too tough and they can't figure it out? Or, could it be that they had the skills to do a good job and left because of prevailing attitudes in the business? How many new folks coming in can't find mentors in their own areas who are willing to help them become successful, and when they come onto these forums for help they are afraid to ask questions, for fear that someone will chide them for not knowing the answers? I think there are a lot, and I think many of them leave the profession frustrated and feeling defeated. Consequently, the inspection training schools make money hand over fist with new hopefuls, while the rest of us are constantly treated to an ever-changing crop of new inspectors who charge consistently lower prices than everyone else and artificially depress fees within the profession. Please understand that I was an Army NCO most of my adult life to this point and mentoring and training younger, inexperienced folks is what NCO's do best. I've had soldiers who couldn't lace their boots up right when assigned to a squad with an overbearing NCO, but who blossomed and who's skills eventually surpassed those of their peers when assigned to squads with NCO's who listened, mentored, gave them opportunities to excel and even allowed them to fail gracefully and learn from their mistakes. We, the veteran inspectors in this business are the NCO's. The schools do nothing but turn out green inspectors with sometimes vastly different capabilities and acquired knowledge. If we want to see this trade grow into a profession, we've got to be more understanding and work harder to inform and train everyone in it. Ah, enough of this. Let's give George back his forum and leave it alone. Just think about what I said the next time someone new signs on and try to remember that you and I were both there once. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi Terry, I don't think your's or George's or anyone else's message about learning is lost on Chip, but maybe his is lost on you guys. He's new to the business and trying to learn. However, he could just as well be a veteran inspector in the Seattle area that learned about heat pumps in a course 10 years ago, has never seen one since, has one on a home tomorrow and has virtually no memory left of any of the key things he learned about heat pumps while in the course he attended, lo those many years ago. Heck, that could be very possible, I had one yesterday - perhaps only the 11th or 12th I've seen since 1996 and working on it I had the distinct impression that I'd just donned a t-shirt backwards. Can you relate to that sensation? Not everyone in this business has a natural intuitiveness for understanding machinery or mechanical concepts and not all are from trades backgrounds. Yet, even some of these folks who have never struck a nail in their lives, have managed to learn enough about construction, electro-mechanicals and the building sciences to do inspections which, if they aren't better, are technically at least as good as some of those I've seen done by some of the alleged 'veterans' in this business. Essentially, what I'm saying is that the bar does need to be raised, but across the board in the entire profession. Lecturing new guys about their inexperience and how it does a disservice to the client isn't doing anything to address the thousands of 'veteran' home inspectors who routinely do a disservice to their clients with quicky, minimalist inspections that are light on technical expertise and heavy on schmooze factor. Before we lecture the new guys, we really need to clean up our own act first. Anyway, people come to TIJ to learn. Every home inspector who comes here, whether in the business for 24 hours or 24 years, whether a member of a professional association or not, whether trained by a school or strictly learn-as-they-go is welcome here, and I would ask that all participants respect the right of everyone who comes here to choose his or her own path in life, to respect one another, not to belittle one another and to be as helpful to one another as possible. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Most new construction around here the below grade pipe is wrapped with the equivalent of a wide black plastic electrical tape and padded like that with foam only where it passes through the concrete. Sometimes though, the foam goes farther. I though, given the frost depth in MA, that you guys there might wrap it further. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Don't know if it is the same system, because it's been so long, but I had one in a downtown highrise condo a few years ago that sounds like this one. It consisted of an A coil inside an air handler with water circulating through it. Turn it to hot and water from the central gas boiler in the basement circulated to the unit and through the coil. A blower in the air handler forced air through the A-coil to heat the home. Turn it to cold and cold water that circulated through a coil inside a central AC plenum was cooled and then passed through the A-coil to send cold air into the home. It was equipped with a condensate pan and drain as well, but had no refrigerant circulating through the system inside the condo. In truth, the A coil had two separate sets of lines running through it, not one as in an AC system or Heat pump. Since it very rarely makes it into the 90's here in the hottest part of the year, the occupants of this building said that this unit made their homes very comfortable in summer here. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Yeah, Those hotels have those pesky details like registers and credit card charges that leave a paper trail that the wife's PI can pick up on really easy. Now, a nondescript house, that's another story. Bet he never installs a phone and uses just his cell. (Sorry, can't help it. I'm a cynical ex-cop who doesn't trust politicians.) ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi Rob, Just looking at your photo. I should imagine that if that pipe is completely wrapped in foam all the way to the meter that very little of it is actually in contact with the earth. Was there a ground rod besides? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Yeah Jim, But I'm not exactly the Ahnaald type. OT - OF!!! M.

Hello Brian and Mark, I agree with you Brian. If a location needs one it needs one and that is always the way I write it up. However, I think used properly, this chart can help an inspector affirm his credibility with a client whom he's just met. Especially a client who's real estate agent is also unknown and one of the manipulative type('zoids). Every one of us, at one time or other, has had to deal with a 'zoid who can't seem to keep his or her mouth shut or nose out of our business during the inspection. GFCI devices seem to be one of those little things that 'zoids like to use, at least around here, to try and partially discredit an inspector's findings. I don't think it is unusual to see clients buy homes, despite significant deficiencies, because their 'zoid has persuaded them that the inspector they used, despite the 'zoid's own recommendation, was knit-picking and making improper calls. Many buyers are already pretty unsure of themselves by the time they get to the inspection. Sometimes, it is pitiful to see how easily a manipulative 'zoid, who resents an unknown inspector's presence, will try and twist the client's perception of your findings. Like I said, around here, GFCI's are one of the things they jump on to try and do that. So, maybe you're inspecting a 1987 home and note that there are no GFCI outlets in the bathrooms and no GFCI breakers protecting those outlets in the panel. You mention this fact to your client and recommend that they be added as a preventive safety measure. At that point, the realtor jumps into the middle of the conversation to try and do damage control by saying something like, "Well, this is a 1987 house. I don't think GFCI devices were used back then, so they aren't required." That's where the smart and diplomatic inspector might then say to the realtor, "Well, you might be correct. Ultimately, (client's name) might have to install them himeself, and doing so would be the smart and prudent thing to do from a health and safety standpoint. However, the National Electrical Code has required GFCI protection in bathrooms since 1974. Since they don't last forever, I have to conclude that the original outlets have been replaced with conventional outlets, and I see this as an issue that needs correction. Here, I've got a chart for each of you (reach into clipboard box, pull out two and hand one to each). This chart explains when and where these devices were required. You can see clearly there that they were required by the NEC in 1987, so the question of whether they should be here or not is simple. They should be. Now, (client's name), let me show you what's going on over here......" Now, I've had this conversation, without the chart, on dozens of occasions over the years. I have no problem telling a client that GFCI weren't required at all prior to 1971, and I know that not all munipalities adopted these provisions on the same timeline as the chart did. Nonetheless, I always strongly recommend that the client add them as a preventive health and safety measure anyway. Mark is certainly right. The chart doesn't change the fact that we ought to recommend them in all circumstances, so the chart is irrelevent from a safety standpoint. However, it can be powerful medicine when used correctly in the hands of a good medicine man. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi All, Norm Sage, our intrepid Pools Forum moderator was kind enough to share with TIJ a chart showing the required locations and dates for GFCI's in dwellings, that he and Jerry Peck, another Florida Inspector, authored. Among others, Douglas also had some input into this chart. I think everyone will find it very useful. Just follow this link to the GFCI Location Chart ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi Richard, That was my thought. Maybe corrosion caused by galvanic reaction, making the resistance in the wire too high to carry the current from a strike. OT - OF!!! M.

Hi Brian, They don't pop off like that - at least none of the ones that I've ever seen venting did. They spit a little at a time - enough to relieve pressure - and then they close again, unless the temp is over boiling. In any event, by the time the water trickles to the end of a long run of copper pipe it will be hot when it drips clear but it shouldn't be scalding. Around here they vent about half of them to the outside, the rest are vented to within 6 and 24 inches of the floor. Most of them are in the garage here unless it's older construction. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi Kurt, Around here (Seattle vicinity) they are about evenly split between floor registers and ceiling registers. In splits they are both ways of course. However, we don't have the severe winters that you do, so indoor climate conditions for forced air may not react exactly the same without frozen ground and sub-zero temperatures all around. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

No, but if they ever make it a crime against architecture to remuddle old homes, I hope that person is the first one to get the chair. OT - OF!!! M.

A high-velocity retrofitted mini-duct system maybe? Electric spacepac system mounted in the attic with 3inch mini-ducts fished through wall and ceiling cavities and tiny diffusers at ceilings? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi Ellen, Unless you've got conditions there that are favorable for backdrafting, I think in this case it is probably caused simply by the fact that the puff shield isn't installed correctly and the secondary puff shield is missing. That's a pretty Rube Goldberg arrangement of soft copper pipe feeding that guy. I don't see a drip leg there and it looks like they've had to use an adapter to up-size it to the control valve, which is not permitted. Check the BTU/HR requirement of the appliance to ensure that tubing that small can provide sufficient flow to that water heater to meet the BTU/HR requirements. Is the shutoff valve within your state's designated distance from the appliance? Also, the picture is a little fuzzy in my monotor. Is that a concrete floor? If so, was that copper in contact with the concrete?(Also a no-no.) ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, Well, I talked to their downtown Seattle number this morning. They guy that talked to me said that he's worked for them for over 20 years (closer to 30) and had no idea what the hell I was talking about. My guess, they dallied in it for a very short period of time and perhaps sold their interest to the present company, which primarily sells HVAC components. I'll keep digging though. Maybe there is an old fellow around here that knows more than the guy downtown did. OT - OF!!! M.

Hi, The subject of AFCI's has been beat to death, stomped on, flattened out into paper and then rolled into cigarillos for Chris to smoke his asphalt with over on Mike Holt's electrical forum. If you go over there and check out the archives, you'll learn more than you'll ever want to know about the darned things. FYI, SureTest is not the only one to make an AFCI tester. Two years ago Etcon came out with a piece of crap tester that was worthless. The following year, the fellow that owns Fox meter thought he could do better and he came up with the first AFCI tester that actually creates an arc fault(At least that's my recollection of his article at the time.) and eventually their tester showed up in the PE catalog last year. Up until then, you had to buy them straight from Fox meter for about $160.. The price seems to be coming down now that SureTest came out with a competing design. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi, I've got to leave for a job in a minute, so I'll be uncharacteristically brief. I don't know much about the topic of ignitability (if that's even a word - probably should have said flammability), but I have seen a fair number of fires in my time on this rock. It seems to me that I've never seen an asphalt shingle roof fully involved in flame. They seem to smoke a great deal, but I've never seen one truly ablaze. Most asphalt shingles have a Class A fire rating and are preferred over other roofing materials by insurance companies. No? There is probably something about this on the NFPA site. Not sure what the URL is off the top of my head. I suggest trying http://www.nfpa.org and doing a search. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Okay, Trying again. This is getting weird. I know I posted, but I don't see my response here. I don't know how the others do it. If it were me, I'd: 1. Exclude the unviewable roof from the scope of my inspection and explain to the client onsite that the inspection is only of those systems and components that are 'exposed to view and apparent at the time and date of the inspection.' 2. I would record in the written report that the roof had been excluded and why and would include a comment that I would be willing to return at a later date to reinspect the roof only, once it is free of snow. I would make sure that the client understands that it is his/her responsibility to notify me when the roof is clear and to schedule the reinspection and that I charge by the hour to return to a home to inspect areas that were excluded because they were unviewable. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Hi,.......uh....Lo?, There is a pretty extensive thread on this subject already here on TIJ. If you search through the previous threads you can probably find it. Try doing a search for 'tools' all subjects, all dates. By the way, using a handle as a username is fine, but home inspectors get paid to be upfront and forthright with clients. We expect the same from each other here and participants tend to be more willing to respond to someone when they can respond and address the person with a proper name like, Mike, or Kurt, or George or Chad..Well, I'm sure you get the idea. Don't be embarrassed about filling out your profile because you are a rookie. All inspectors are welcome here and I think the new guys in the business that are already regulars here will confirm that this group is very willing to help new folks. They just would like the courtesy of knowing who they are addressing. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

Huh, I should have done that. Woodinville is about 4 miles as the crow flies from where I'm sitting. Used to be a little hole-in-the-wall town when I first moved here. The town put together a development plan and put it into action around 1998. The whole downtown area has been transformed really nicely. Big new shopping centers with a sort of small village feel and houses going up everywhere. I bet the population over there has more than quadrupled. Whoops, I'm rambling about non-HVAC stuff. Sorry, I just find the transformation of that place fascinating(Wish they'd do it here.). I'll see what I can find out. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike

by Mike O'Handley, Editor Have you ever seen someone do something so monumentally stupid that you were physically sickened by it or enraged and frustrated to the point of tears? Well recently it happened to me and I'm still not over it. Just down the street from my home, tucked well back from the street in a u-shaped stand of high hedges, stood a little brick Tudor cottage with an English basement that was probably about 95 to 100 years old. Now, this building was pretty run down and badly in need of a complete renovation, but it was unique among houses in this area. I know, because I'm an old house buff and in 8 years on Puget Sound haven't seen another one like it. Imagine, a brick and stucco exterior, arched doorways and windows set deep in the walls. Leaded windows with diamond-shaped lites, thick oak door with massive iron hinges and reinforcement and a steeply-raked roof with diamond-shaped French style shingles and a little upward flare at the ends of each ridge reminiscent of the flare seen on thatched roofs in Europe. In my entire life, the only places I'd ever seen others like it have been in Europe, while traveling through Normandy or Belgium. In fact, this home so closely resembled one I'd seen in Normandy that when I first saw it in 1996 I thought it must have been brought from Europe stone by stone. So, when a sign appeared on the front lawn in 1998 inviting comments from the public about a proposed 10 unit apartment building on the site, I immediately tracked down the developer and asked him what was going to happen to the house. "Well," he drawled matter of factly, "I'm planning to bulldoze it. Why do you ask, do you want it?" "Hell yes!" was my response. "Well, have it off the lot 30 days before I'm ready to begin construction and it's yours. Just don't leave anything behind," he responded. That set me off on a two year quest to find a lot not too far away that I could afford, a house moving company that had the equipment and skills to move a brick and stucco house in one piece without destroying it and someone interested in investing in the project with me. Little did I realize what tall orders those were. First, there were no reasonably priced lots in close proximity, the closest company with the technical know-how and equipment to move a brick home intact is in Victory, BC (http://www.nickelbros.com), and, try as I might, I couldn't get anyone interested in the project. Since I didn't have the financial means to take on this project myself, the project languished and I spend most of 1998 through 2000 fretting about that cottage. In late 2000 I called the developer again and asked him for an update. "The whole thing is on hold," he told me, "The little old lady that lives there won't move out and my agreement is that I won't force her to leave, so we're gonna wait her out. I'm not worried about it, we've got lots of other projects going on right now and can always sell it to another interested party, if she doesn't move along pretty soon." I breathed a sigh of relief - maybe there was more time. Still, I continued to check in every once in a while with the developer and continued to find the project in limbo. At one point I tried to get the local historical society involved and the President told me that they too were trying frantically to find a way to save the house. Hearing that, I breathed a sigh of relief because I was fairly certain they had the resources and the community interest to pull it off. Time wore on and last summer the developer's sign came down. I watched the place closely and noticed that a new family seemed to have moved in. "Thank God," I thought, "The developer sold his interest in it and someone else has moved in." So, imagine my feelings one day recently as I was driving by, noticed orange construction barricades in front of the lot, slowed down to take a look at what was going on and found the house was gone and most of lot was covered with a large concrete pad and a new condominium building was going up! There, off on a corner of the lot, was a large pile of brick, stone and wood rubble being loaded onto dump trucks for transport to the landfill. I was sickened at the sight and actually had to pull off to the side of the street to retch. Sitting there infuriated by the sheer stupidity of what I'd just seen, I found myself gripping the steering wheel so hard it hurt and tears of rage were streaming down my cheeks. I was so upset that I turned around and went home, too depressed and full of self-loathing for not having been more proactive and staying on top of things in order to prevent this tragedy. I know, it probably sounds stupid that I'd get so upset just over an old house, but to me these aren't just old houses. These are time capsules of our American existence and we're carelessly replacing them with pavement and vinyl-sided structures that will be gone in 30 to 40 years. This lunacy is what I call Crimes Against Architecture. Recently, I read a HUD publication - Review of Structural Materials and Methods For Home Building in the United States: 1900 to 2000 (Number 20 on the list of downloadable pdf files you'll find in TIJ's downloads section) - and was shocked to learn that in the year 1995 less than 9% of US housing stock was 76 or more years old. Living in a place like Seattle, a city that is barely 150 years old and where there is a huge stock of homes built between 1880 and 1920, I hadn't realized there were so few old homes left. I find it unconscionable that Americans are allowing the one thing in this country that is truly American, our architecture, to disappear before our very eyes, replaced by featureless artsy-fartsy pieces of crap, while we sit by, shrug our shoulders and not doing anything about it. So, you might ask, that's the crime against architecture, but what's up with A Call To Arms? Well, we home inspectors are uniquely positioned to influence homeowners and dissuade them from making some of the remuddling mistakes that are destroying these old homes. I'm asking for home inspectors to get involved. Have you ever inspected a grand old house for a couple and heard them conversing behind you, talking about tearing out the woodwork, tearing off the roof to reconfigure it and re-siding the home in E.I.F.S. or corrugated steel, in order to contemporize it? I have. And, even though I'm not being paid for my opinion of modernizing historic homes, I've never missed the opportunity to point out to the client any unique features of their old home and have always tried to impress upon them how important our older homes are to the preservation of our own heritage. I admit that in most of these cases my opinion didn't sway the clients, but I have had some successes. When I began inspecting homes in Seattle in 1996, 1200 square foot bungalows were going for less than half of what they are now in the same neighborhoods. Being a bungalow fanatic, I never let an inspection of one of these homes go by without schooling the client, and any realtor present, about the history of bungalow homes and how uniquely American the genre' became after it was exported to the US late in the 19th century from England, and then from America around the world by way kits sold on every continent. I send clients various articles about bungalows and point them to various old home websites and publications where they can learn more and gain an appreciation of what they've bought. Today, bungalows in Seattle are enjoying a renaissance, prices have doubled in just a few short years, and realtors that used to sniff and turn their noses up at Bungalows are parroting much of what I've been telling my clients for years. Best of all, there are now numerous bungalow neighborhoods where homeowners are enthusiastically restoring them instead of bulldozing them into the ground and replacing them. I'm not conceited enough to think that I single-handedly initiated an interest in Bungalows in the Seattle area, but I like to think that my efforts at educating my clients has had something to do with regenerating interest. Now, I'd like to figuratively point my finger at all home inspectors and say, "America Needs You!". Learn a little bit about what makes older homes in this country uniquely American and never let an opportunity to educate your clients pass without educating them about what it is that they are purchasing. Point them to periodicals like American Bungalow (http://www.ambungalow.com), Old House Journal(http://www.oldhousejournal.com) and and websites like Historic Properties (http://www.historicproperties.com, where they can learn more about various programs across the country aimed at preserving this old housing stock. Lastly, those of you who see a lot of old homes, and have also developed an appreciation for them, should consider joining the newest yet least-known of all professional home inspector associations, The Historic Building Inspectors Association (HBIA)(http://www.inspecthistoric.org). HBIA was founded in 2003 by William H. Kibbel III. According to Kibbel, the idea for HBIA stems from a need for inspectors who know and understand the unique historical and structural characteristics of vintage housing stock. Kibbel says that, over the course of 18 years in the home inspection business, he has inspected nearly 10,000 homes or buildings that were between 100 and 350 years old, and has built a reputation for his expertise in historic buildings. However, he found himself turning down numerous requests to do inspections in other areas and states because the homes were just too far away. Because numerous disappointed home buyers often asked if he knew of anyone else experienced with historic homes that could do the job for them, Kibbel began to seek out other inspectors who had similar knowledge and experience and an interest in preservation of old homes. This small group of inspectors, has now formed the nucleus of HBIA, and is seeking new inspector/members who have specific experience with, and an appreciation for, historic buildings. What will it take to join HBIA? Well, the largest stumbling block is not the cost because dues are only $30.00 a year. HBIA will only accept members who meet very stringent membership qualifications - qualifications that require more selective experience than the average inspector has, but which should be easy enough for seasoned inspectors with an appreciation of old buildings to achieve. To be a member of HBIA, inspectors must be employed in the home inspection business full-time have passed either the National Home Inspector Exam (NHIE) or the NAHI CRI exam have completed at least 200 fee-paid inspections must maintain at least 16 hours of continuing education credits annually have been actively involved in historic preservation or have obtained a certificate in Preservation Skills and Technology maintain a valid state or municipal license when required maintain ethical standards as defined by individual state requirements or by the code of ethics of either ASHI® or NAHIâ„¢ pay annual dues of $30 In addition, applicants must submit at least two reports in a narrative-style format that meet either NAHI or ASHI standards that demonstrate the applicant's expertise in evaluating and reporting on structural and mechanical conditions observed in historic buildings. Those requirements are a pretty tall order. Nonetheless, HBIA has grown rapidly over the past 5 months to where there are now members covering twelve states. Kibbel is convinced that, HBIA's website, http://www.inspecthistoric.org , will eventually become the source where historic home buyers will get connected to experienced home inspectors. Do you think you have what it takes to be part of the smallest and least appreciated, but nonetheless extremely important citizen's army in the United States, devoted solely to helping home buyers find and preserve viable old buildings thus preserving our heritage? Or, are you content to sit by and watch crimes against architecture continue until we are all living in drab, featureless boxes devoid of historical context and personality? If you think you have what it takes and want to join, contact The Historic Building Inspectors Association, P.O. Box 201, Springtown, PA 18081, or visit their website for more information and to fill out a membership application. Now, is anyone interested in lobbying their legislators to push for a federal law making it a jailable offense to commit crimes against architecture? ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Never said anything different. It's just one of the typically found loopy things around here that I write up. OT - OF!!! M.

Hi, I see it all the time here in the northwest, although the method that Brian describes was used here right up until about the middle of the 90's when Washington came out with an energy code that required they be ducted to the exterior. Most winters here are mild and don't make enough difference to make the use of insulation really a super critical thing. However, I write them up on every home, 'cuz in Dec '96/'97 we had lots of snow and New England like weather for about a month. During that time, I found plenty of uninsulated ducts sagging between trusses full of water that had condensed inside of them because they weren't insulated. Some, where the ducts were just 4 inch galvanized steel, were causing water to condense, leak at joints and stain the ceilings below. Since I can't predict when mother nature will take another dump on us like that one, I'm not taking any chances. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike