Terence McCann

Hallmark Shangle, Independence Shangle, Horizon Shangle What in the hell is a "Shangle"?

Good job! A furnace that is blowing warm air in January is always a good thing.

Ozone Monitor - only 584.00 but the upside is you get a price break if you buy 3 or more [:-party]

The reason I asked is that some folks run the main blower 24/7 (I do in the dead of winter). In this case the humidifier is also working 24/7. The humidifier is not really working, it's only energized when the blower comes on and waiting for a call from the humidistat. The blower and hum have to be interlocked otherwise the hum would run continuously and cause damage to the furnace by dumping moisture inside the plenum. Yep, I understand that.

The reason I asked is that some folks run the main blower 24/7 (I do in the dead of winter). In this case the humidifier is also working 24/7.

Nice mechanical system John. I didn't know that H/W produced a residential steam humidifier. Is it wired to the fan or heat circuit?

I don't quite follow. I always though that an RH value of between 40% and 60% is healthiest for humans. My daughter got nosebleeds in the winter until I installed a portable room sized humidifyer in the largest room of the house which is set to maintain 60% humidity (duty cycle hits 100% for a few days during cold spells as the RH varies from 40 to 60%). Water condensing on the windows is a sign of heat loss. Of course, I'm from the Gulf Coastal area where the winters seldom get below 32 degrees. Marc The key is your regional area - this is why I said this applies to the climate where I live in one of my previous posts. If I tried to stick an RH of 60% in my home when it's 10F outside I'd be mopping up condensation for sure. Over humidifying a home in this area is a real problem. I try to keep my home where we stop shocking each other (most of the time) but don't see any problems with condensation.

My guess is they want user to turn down the humidistat, when it starts getting cold outside, so that you don't do exactly what we're discussing. It's still goofy though. When I talk to people about this most of them get a glazed over look and want to move on. It is important though. I always put wording in my report regarding the ramifications about too much humidity in the winter. 25% may be OK depending on the outdoor air temp. Knowing what the warning signs are helps you judge. We were at 10F this morning and 25% would have been way too high. At that RH there would have been water on my windows (and in my attic). Don't forget that humidity can travel through drywall so as it goes into an attic it also goes through walls.

Real nice Terry, Picking on a guy with one leg shorter than the other. That was good for a chuckle, unless of course you're serious, in which case I won't laugh (as much).

Not only that but the whole basement is listing to the left. [] Mid 70's would not be a bad guess.

The problem with most folks is that they over humidify their house - if a little is good a lot is better. 99% of the time when I see mold in the attic I also see a humidifier on the furnace. This applies to the climate where I live - your mileage may vary. I don't think it is necessary to disable the humidifier but folks need to be taught how to properly operate them. First off the humidistat was out of calibration one week after it was manufactured - they're junk. Also most of them have that goofy "when it is 20 deg f turn to 30%, when it is 0 deg f turn to 20% etc." 2nd, when it get's really cold out, and the furnace is running all the time, so is the humidifier - this really cold weather is when the problem(s) crop up. I did an inspection in the summer for a client who called me back in the winter saying there was water dripping from the attic ceiling. In that instance I told them to shut the humidifier off and call me in two weeks. The called back and said that the attic was fine and drying out. I tell the buyer to get a real humidistat, the type that comes with a barometer in most cases. In cold weather, 0-20 deg f. do not keep the home above 10% RH or so. I also tell them that if they start to see water condensing on the windows they're putting to much humidity into the home.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Whether Benjamin Franklin said it or not I still like the phrase. A local mini brewery, Great Lakes, makes a great beer called "Christmas Ale". Delicious!

Was there a humidifier on the furnace or the roll around type?

Taken to direct email for the moment.

Sure. The shell and tube heat exchanger is meant for water cooled refrigeration systems - the refrigerant flows through the tubes and condenses from a gas to a liquid. The shell holds the water from the cooling tower that is the heat transfer source for the refrigerant. Eddy current tests are advised on the tubes of the condenser to check wall thickness. Refrigerant and water don't mix and will typically result in a compressor burnout on recip systems. The plate to plate heat exchanger is a water liquid to water liquid heat exchanger. Manufacturing plants also use these to cool down cutting lubricants along with the cooling tower set up. Google has a image finder that you can use to search for a cut-away of the construction of these items.

Publicity hound []

Does this also have to do with your other question about the heat exchangers?

What you have is a plate to plate heat exchanger and a shell and tube heat exchanger. The plate to plate heat exchanger is used as an economizer (free cooling) in low outdoor ambient conditions. Tracing out the piping would show that two of the pipes (on the plate to plate heat exchanger) would have gone to the cooling tower, via either manual change over valves or motorized 3-way valves. The other two pipes would be the chilled water supply to the building (with the same type of valve configuration). Bigger hi-rise buildings typically need cooling year around as the core of the building still needs to be cooled. With this system, in a low outdoor ambient condition, the cooling tower water goes through the plate to plate heat exchanger to provide necessary cooling to the building without running the electric chillers thereby saving $$. The shell and tube heat exchanger is the condenser used for the chiller in the summer. Free Cooling - a short paper on the subject.

That sounds more like it, thanks.

While searching for my Trane Ductulator I came across my Trane Reciprocating Refrigeration Manual. It's a bit long in the tooth now but a great manual and still worth reading.

In commercial the rule of thumb was 1 CFM per square foot. Your space is 24X18 which equates 432 square feet or, on the safe side, 432 CFM. I have misplaced my ductulator [:-banghea but found this web site that has HVAC Duct Sizes by CFM. I would love to cross check these but can not at the moment. Assuming they are correct; a 6" round will deliver 300 CFM so you're already short. R/A might help if place on the opposite wall. The do make supply duct booster fans, like the ones shown, however I can't say for sure they would help. They're cheap enough so it wouldn't hurt to give it a shot. Good luck!

There is a nut on top of it? Got a picture showing the whole thing? Never mind, saw a shot in your other post. Doesn't look like any safety valve I've ever seen. All the safety valves I've seen on boilers have a lift handle to manually pop them. Perhaps one of the other gents knows. Got a pic without the date stamped over it (referring to the pic in your other post)?

Definitely a handyman repair Darren - you can tell just by the looks. In the real would a repair like this may be OK if the material used is impervious to acid - such as the type of coupling that would be used in the drain line of a lab that disposes of acidic/caustic materials. It wouldn't be text book but I'd do it in my home if need be. As there is no good way to tell in the field, for most folks, removal and replacement is prudent.

It's kinda like saying "other than the ocassional electrical shock my drill motor runs great." It was by no means an insult.

Can't say I've ever seen one in this neck of the woods - must be a regional thang.