Mod Bit : roof concerns

[Brandon Whitmore]

I'm curious how hard y'all would hammer this new roof installation??

It's a Certainteed GTA, APA/ torch down product here

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[Marc]

The last photo is playing tricks on my eyes in regard to roof pitches. Leaving that out for now, the only issue I see is a lack of granules on the asphalt that oozed out at the seams.

Marc

[kurt]

I'm curious how hard y'all would hammer this new roof installation??

I'd probably get out my old 28 oz. waffle head.......

[caryseidner]

From the pics all I could say is:

1) Over torched at the seams. Don't really want to see more than 1/4" of bleed out.

2) No perimeter edge metal. This roof will blow off or up enough to allow water entry.

1+2 = Amateur work. I'm sure I could find more if I could walk on it. Call a professional to fix or replace it.

[Brandon Whitmore]

My main concern is the bleed out. I've got some calls in to the manufacturers technical rep., but am yet to receive a call me back to discuss this issue. The installation manual specifies 1/8- 1/4" bleed out, while I found up to 4".

What are the long term issues as a result?

There is both eave and rake edge metal, and the mod bit is sealed well to the flashing at this time.

There are spots where there is only 2.5" of side lap, while the manual calls for 3". While this is wrong, I doubt it will ever be an issue because this is close to a 2:12 slope.

Some of the seams were obviously over heated, while others were under heated; I could pry up the material at some seams.

This is the same house I've been dealing with for at least 6 months. I posted pictures of wiring and other issues a while back, and started a thread about a contractor doing illegal work.

This new roofer came in after the old contractor did a bunch of improper repairs to the older mod bit (non granular) roof. This guy told everyone that the unsurfaced mod bit was not allowed as a cap sheet, and so he got the job of replacing the roof. He advertises himself as " 3rd oldest "roofing only" contractor in Oregon"

I see a lot of sloppy mod bit installations in regards to bleed out, but this is worse than usual.

I wanted to run this one by you guys before I started what will be in the neighborhood of WWXXI at this point. The lender refuses to loan on this house until I sign off on everything....................

Thanks for the replies/ opinions.

[caryseidner]

My main concern is the bleed out. I've got some calls in to the manufacturers technical rep., but am yet to receive a call me back to discuss this issue. The installation manual specifies 1/8- 1/4" bleed out, while I found up to 4".

What are the long term issues as a result?

Standard Mod Bit sheets are manufactured by pulling scrims of fiberglass and/or polyester mats through molten bitumen, coating the scrim with the bitumen. After it cools it is trimmed to the manufacturers’ thickness specifications. Typical overall thickness is 3/16â€

[Brandon Whitmore]

Thank you Cary.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Here's the roofer's reply if anyone is interested:

Item 1.

The bleedout is desired some & normally more on a sloped roof. The 1/4"

manufacture guidline request is on a flat roof.

There are parts that bled out more than 1/2" due to the slope & is cosmetic

only. Will not effect the life of the roof.

I looked from the yards & could not see them.

But if you need the bleedout that exceeds 1/2" covered with embedded granules,

we can do that.

Item 2.

I can see from your photo where you got the tip of your finger under a lap.

Appaently I miised that one.

By the way, though not the goal, if a small portion of a 3" lap on this 2/12

slope was open it would not leak and would lay down on it's own with some 75deg

temps. We can re-heat & skick that down if you need.

Item 3.

There's not many & again the slope is not flat & a 2/12 so they are not a leak

issue.

A slightly short lap can be sealed & embedded with Granules.

Item 4.

Even the manufacture doesn't get "in the field" much & get the 80 years of

experience, in the wild weather NW, that we have.

A lead pipe flashing has a very low melting point. We don't use them. We do use

three sizes of heat guns depending on the task.

Around the plumbing vent pipe they got new metal flanges, sandwiched between new

roof layers & applied with our smallest heat source so as not to damage the

rubber portion of the flashing. Then we applied a Modified Bitumen elastic

mastic (very long lasting & made exactly for contact with these type of

products. Then we embeeded granules for longgevity.

Please reply as soon as possible to let me know what you feel is required.

Thank you,

The warranty rep, and then the regional technical rep. called me back today to discuss my concerns. The tech. rep. said the only way to know for sure if the bleed out was excessive would be to cut out a section and send it in to them for testing...that's not gonna happen. He said that if I felt it was excessive, then I should have them install new strips of mod. bit. over the excess bleed out as a patch.

I think you can figure out what is being discussed in numbers 1-3, but #4 was where I questioned the use of Oatey No- caulk pipe jacks. The manufacturer's warranty rep. agreed that the use of these jacks is an inferior installation.

[kurt]

We use lead boots all the time with mod bit. They work wonderfully. Or, simply make a boot out of mod bit.

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Bain]

Brandon, these kinds of debates/arguments/wars are absolutely the worst aspects of our jobs. And, of course, you're not being reimbursed for the time you're expending.

My sympathies . . .

[hausdok]

of course, you're not being reimbursed for the time you're expending.

My sympathies . . .

If this was part of the initial inspection, I agree, I wouldn't charge for it. However, if this were a situation where I got called back to inspect a new roof that had been installed in response to something that I'd written in my report, it would be charged.

My fees are based on a one-time visit to the property and the time it takes to prepare and deliver that report. Any re-visits to the property are charged by the half hour at twice my normal hourly fee and I charge for time on the road coming and going to the site, time on site, time it takes to prepare any written responses and any time I have to spend on the phone arguing with any agents, sellers or contractors.

I tell folks that my fee structure for reinspections is very much like a lawyer's. I tell them that when I recommend they get work done by a specialist, ie. electrician, framer, plumber, HVAC tech, roofer, etc., they should ensure that the contractor used has a good reputation, warrants his or her work and hold that pro's feet to the fire because I'm not in the business of endorsing anyone's finished work.

Most get it. I do maybe a half dozen reinspections a year. Those are usually to go up on a roof to verify that something that can't be seen from the ground was fixed, 'cuz the client doesn't want to go up on a roof; to go up into an attic to verify that something that can't be seen from the hatch was fixed, 'cuz the client doesn't want to fall through the ceiling; or to go into crawlspaces to verify that something that can't be seen from the hatch was fixed, 'cuz the client doesn't want to go into a dark, close place that's dirty and might have insects or other critters. I almost never hear from contractors.

If you guys are doing reinspections, I hope you're charging for them. I didn't charge for reinspections for the first four years I was in this business and would get dozens, maybe more than a hundred, requests a year to do them. When I eventually went back and totaled up what I might have made had I been charging for them, I realized why I'd gone to the brink of bankruptcy after my fall in 2000 and I began charging for them. Don't be a schmuck; get paid for your work. If you're doing this gig, you're worth it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[John Kogel]

We use lead boots all the time with mod bit. They work wonderfully. Or, simply make a boot out of mod bit.

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

Agreed. Just take an old lead boot out and heat it up with a tiger torch. The mod bit would be on fire before the lead melted enough to be damaged. Then he goes on to say they use a low heat so they can install a plastic boot. Huh? []

Little patches of mod bit over the bleedout would be another joke. I think I would just record all the info and hand it over to the client for reference at this point.

Good point, Mike. Charge for your time.

Mr. Niceguy here got thrown under the bus one day for "making the seller's toilet leak. He saw you do it". I had gone by for no charge, to see if the attic repairs were done. OK. Thought I'd check the loose toilet as well on the way out. My free reinspection almost cost me a plumbing and drywall repair.

Lucky my client was also a nice guy, who knew the toilet had been loose for months because he had seen it the first time. Now, the ceiling was damaged. He just laughed it off.

I wonder, though, if I had charged him $100 for the reinspection, would he have been so generous? We'll never know and it will not happen again.

I also recommend keeping records of all correspondence and notes of telephone conversations. I am told that even a simple handwritten note, time and date, what was said by who, will be valid, if it ever comes to that. So any time a client calls me, I make a note of it and toss it in the file. I try to remember to print off the emails too.

[Tom Raymond]

I think some nice new base sheet and rubber would fix it nicely.

I'm wondering of this turkey would be qualified to land if he were to fall off that roof?

[Bain]

I wasn't actually talking about the reinspection thing, Mike. I charge plenty for my time. I was talking about the constant battles with contractors and builders we bust, recalcitrant homeowners, and even realtor peeps--all of whom want to prove that we don't know what we're talking about. Brandon's letter from the roofer is a perfect example. The roofer is clearly defensive and disingenuous, yet so much of it winds up becoming a he-said/she-said kind of thing, and it's a major pain in the ass.

I DON'T get paid for providing cites or documentation for someone who wants to convince others I'm a loon, or the concomitant phone calls.

[Jim Katen]

Here's the roofer's reply if anyone is interested:

Item 1.

The bleedout is desired some & normally more on a sloped roof. The 1/4"

manufacture guidline request is on a flat roof.

There are parts that bled out more than 1/2" due to the slope & is cosmetic

only. Will not effect the life of the roof.

I looked from the yards & could not see them.

But if you need the bleedout that exceeds 1/2" covered with embedded granules,

we can do that.

The amount of bleedout is *not* related to the slope of the roof. I've watched this stuff being installed on 12:12 roof sections and the bleedout was within spec. The bleedout indicates overheating. That said, if it was just a corner here & there, I wouldn't get too worked up over it and I'd take him up on his offer to embed some granules in it. But if it was widespread, I'd recommend taking a core to the manufacturer.

Item 2.

I can see from your photo where you got the tip of your finger under a lap.

Appaently I miised that one.

By the way, though not the goal, if a small portion of a 3" lap on this 2/12

slope was open it would not leak and would lay down on it's own with some 75deg

temps. We can re-heat & skick that down if you need.

Did you use a pick to probe that seam or just your finger? I've found that those loose edges sometimes indicate a really poor seam that can be peeled up with a pick or knife tip. It's pretty hard to get a seam to be well adhered everywhere except the edge.

Item 3.

There's not many & again the slope is not flat & a 2/12 so they are not a leak

issue.

A slightly short lap can be sealed & embedded with Granules.

If we only got rain, I might agree. Has he ever heard of ice & ice damming? A short lap can be easily and effectively sealed with a patch though.

Item 4.

Even the manufacture doesn't get "in the field" much & get the 80 years of

experience, in the wild weather NW, that we have.

A lead pipe flashing has a very low melting point. We don't use them. We do use

three sizes of heat guns depending on the task.

Around the plumbing vent pipe they got new metal flanges, sandwiched between new

roof layers & applied with our smallest heat source so as not to damage the

rubber portion of the flashing. Then we applied a Modified Bitumen elastic

mastic (very long lasting & made exactly for contact with these type of

products. Then we embeeded granules for longgevity.

So, he doesn't use lead because it might melt. Instead he uses a product that includes a neoprene boot. That makes sense. (not)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using lead flashings. If he's having problems with the lead melting, then he's doing something very, very wrong.

I've never seen Oatey pipe jacks used with torch down membranes but I imagine that it could work just fine if you could avoid melting the rubber boot. What I don't understand is why he'd need mastic for that application.

Please reply as soon as possible to let me know what you feel is required.

Thank you,

Well, he's still at the "please" & "thank you" stage. That's good.

What company is this? (If you want, you can encode the name by typing one letter to the right of each key.)

It sounds like this particular guy either doesn't know squat about roofing or he's just a chronic bullshitter.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brandon Whitmore]

My fees are based on a one-time visit to the property and the time it takes to prepare and deliver that report. Any re-visits to the property are charged by the half hour at twice my normal hourly fee and I charge for time on the road coming and going to the site, time on site, time it takes to prepare any written responses and any time I have to spend on the phone arguing with any agents, sellers or contractors.

Mike,

Any chance you have a fee schedule or write up you could send me? I've been toying with charging more for re- inspections, and more importantly, charging for the many hours of replies to e- mails, phone calls, etc. This has been going on for so long that I probably have close to 30 hours of work on it, and have probably charged for 10. I do charge for re- inspections, but not nearly enough.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Jim-- check this: STATE LIC. # 191500

[Brandon Whitmore]

And it continues......

Got a call (getting less polite) yesterday, and a voicemail was left/ saved.

The roofer basically called the Certainteed rep. and extremist-- ha ha.

Really appreciated your speedy reply.

Maybe some of the reason's for some differing opinions is due to the fact that this is a commercial product primarily spec-ed for slopes down to 1/4â€

[Brandon Whitmore]

The amount of bleedout is *not* related to the slope of the roof. I've watched this stuff being installed on 12:12 roof sections and the bleedout was within spec. The bleedout indicates overheating. That said, if it was just a corner here & there, I wouldn't get too worked up over it and I'd take him up on his offer to embed some granules in it. But if it was widespread, I'd recommend taking a core to the manufacturer.

That's what I said in my first reply, and what I told my client.

According to the technical rep. who has not seen the pictures, he said it sounded like someone may have used too much pressure at the seams or used their foot instead of a roller as well.

Did you use a pick to probe that seam or just your finger? I've found that those loose edges sometimes indicate a really poor seam that can be peeled up with a pick or knife tip. It's pretty hard to get a seam to be well adhered everywhere except the edge.

Finger only. He overheated most of it, so areas where bleed out was missing was highly suspect. Most of the stuff was adhered very well.

f we only got rain, I might agree. Has he ever heard of ice & ice damming? A short lap can be easily and effectively sealed with a patch though.

Yep, said that in my first reply as well. The e- mail I copied and pasted in the post above was pretty much out of left field. He does not answer any direct questions/ statements I had in my first e- mail. He chose to jam pack a reply with non applicable info. and BS. His voicemail is just as interesting.

I'm by no means an expert on mod. bit roofing (getting closer every day), but the ignorance? I run into by tradesmen is more and more concerning.

So, he doesn't use lead because it might melt. Instead he uses a product that includes a neoprene boot. That makes sense. (not)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using lead flashings. If he's having problems with the lead melting, then he's doing something very, very wrong.

I've never seen Oatey pipe jacks used with torch down membranes but I imagine that it could work just fine if you could avoid melting the rubber boot. What I don't understand is why he'd need mastic for that application.

Not only did they use the Oatey's, but they covered the boots in a petroleum based product, and they flat out told me they did so. Then, they linked me to the Oatey site that says not to do it.

I asked the warranty rep. about the use of the Oatey's, and was told he's seen it plenty of times, and that he always runs into issues.

I imagine that if they didn't cover them in a petroleum based product, and didn't over heat the boots, they would work for a while. As soon as they split or degrade, there would be a much greater risk for leaks (house up in the hills of Estacada, so lots of snow/ weather.

Well, he's still at the "please" & "thank you" stage. That's good.

Not as much so any more......

This entire house has been such as debacle, that I'm waiting for death threats to begin. This roof issue is a very minor hump compared to some other stuff that has occurred.

It sounds like this particular guy either doesn't know squat about roofing or he's just a chronic bullshitter.

But they have 80 years of experience........This is a family business by the way-- the company is listed as exempt (no employees).

There's a lot of ignorance, along with a little BS.

[Tom Raymond]

Oooh, insured to cool million! Chump!