Kyle Kubs

Actually it depends. What kind of appliance are we talking about? If its a central air conditioning compressor that has a 30 amp max. fuse/breaker rating but a Min. circuit ampacity of 18 amps. it's fine. Now if your talking electric water heater... No good replace the wire.

Brian is 99.9% right. (The Cutler-Hammer CH panel is a 42/42 panel) but thats semantics. Your slick willy electrician is full of it with the 10% BS. The panel you show is a Square D 40/40 panel. If you look on the inside, usually, left side of the enclosure there is a label that will state 40 circuits max. All square D panels have this label on the inside of the enclosure to dictate the max circuits allowed in the panel. As Brian said, aside from the CH panel it's 40 circuits max. for a residential panel. Easily resolved though, right write it up and move on.

Well, first I am assuming you meant manufacturer... Westinghouse

I take it thats the only picture/angle you have? Didn't open it up? It looks a little like the mechanism that automatically opens the louvers in the ceiling when a house ventilation fan in the attic is powered on.

About a year ago I was inspecting a house for an older couple. I had put my ladder to the roof and gone up, was looking around on the back slope, when I came back to the front side there was Mr. Kim, 87 years old, WEARING HOUSE SLIPPERS, sweeping the leaves off the roof.[:-bigeyes

InspectorJoe, Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post the pics and manual, it was helpful. Still not sure why the manual allows it this way but it's something. I tried to get the manual for what I am dealing with, a Kohler unit, but their web site is not what I would call user friendly... It has absolutely nothing to do with automatic or manual. It has to do with how they are wired. A "Gen-Tran" type panel is a fixed wired panel. You cannot add circuits or change the sizes of the existing circuits. Also, the breakers in the existing panel are being used. The little plunger breakers in the transfer panel are ONLY for when the circuit is on the "GEN" setting. The panel in the OP's situation IS a sub panel with it's OWN branch circuit breakers. Pete, While I do agree with you that in my situation the neutrals and grounds should originate in the sub panel, I disagree that the set up Joe is presenting is different and NOT a sub panel. I have seen his setup before but just made up by an electrician using a common breaker fed panel with the lockout that only allows one of the disconnects to be on. Joe's gen panel is taking power from a breaker on the main panel and using a four wire feed. It is a sub panel. The power for the generator circuits is fed through the breakers in that sub panel. I don't see where you think the breakers in the existing panel are being used. The existing main panel feeds the sub panel, the sub feed the circuits connected to it through it's breakers, regardless of the whether the panel is being fed from the main panel or from the generator. The feeds from the breakers in the sub are wire nutted to the original leads in the main panel... Also not sure why you are saying the panel is "fixed". They are just breakers...snap in and out like anything else. Looks like it comes as kind of a pre-assembled kit that will handle most common setups, nothing you couldn't make up yourself with the right parts, but it is still just a loadcenter. Chad, I agree wholeheartedly and I don't expect you or anyone to believe it but I was on site at a job just recently where the AHJ came in told the contractor it was wrong and then picked up the manual off the boiler and showed him where the manufacturer called for the drain T in the vent pipe he didn't install and said wasn't needed. I'm sure it will never happen again.

Lotsa comments, many not accurate. My two cents. The street power is fed from the right side of the main panel into the generator control. During normal power times the flow goes through to the lower (sub) panel. The generator control automatically cuts off street power when the generator activates, and feeds power to the lower panel. The lower panel is 4 wire as a sub panel should be. When street power returns the generator shuts down and the feed to the lower sub panel is restored from the main panel. No magic, just follow the wires. While I appreciate the effort, that was all totally understood and not at all the question I was asking... While I don't think it is a big issue at all, especially in this configuration, I'm fairly certain it is technically wrong. Now that I'm not as sleep deprived as I was yesterday I'm beginning to be able to wrap my head around the mechanics of why I think it's wrong. The first thing that came to mind is, as Chad said, all members of a circuit must be run together. While this really applies more to cable and conduit applications it certainly can apply here as well. Main issue with it being the imbalance of the magnetic fields, without the neutrals to cancel the field from the feeds this leaves a potential for induction heating, albeit very, very small in this case. Keep in mind, I'm saying this as a point of discussion, not that I'm certain I'm right defending my position. Any and all opinions are welcome. Where is the almighty Katen when you need him... or Mr. Abernathy? I hate having to call out stuff like this. It's so minuscule, yet on a technical note just wrong, I think. My brain is hurting again.

Sorry, my brain is fried and I'm just tired of looking through books. Today's panel started out as the sole, main panel. 2006 they added a propane powered generator on an auto start switch and moved all the geny powered circuit feeds to the lower panel through a close nipple between the two, odd thing is they left all the circuit neutrals and grounds hooked up to the bus bars on the main panel. Now the whole thing is a work of art obviously done by somebody smarter than me, it's got it's Twp. sticker and all but it just doesn't sit right with me. I feel like something somewhere requires the neutrals and grounds to originate in the same panel as the feeds but maybe I just have a loose neutral today cause I can't figure out why. Anyone? Image Insert: 1360.34 KB

Bill, one of these day we're going to find out you know all this stuff because your immortal and you were there 150 years ago... Maybe I wouldn't have been so cavalier about it if it was my inspection and my worried client looking at me like a my dog when I'm slicing meat. Still think its cool though.

In this area ductwork likes to live in crawlspaces and attics, the same place wiring and rodents like to live. When I don't have 50 other things distracting me I will take my tester and use a good known ground source, (water pipe, conduit...), and check for current from other things like ducting, gas pipes, water pipes, I have found them all live and at high potential many times. Why would ducting be any less likely to be energized then water or gas piping? As phillip said, ducting seems to be a great place to lay down the wire you just disconnected, no caps, still live, and just leave it there. I see this constantly. Maybe it is a little over zealous. Maybe the electrical department is a good place to be a little over zealous...

Excuse my imperfection... Bonding Jumper. Actually the FPN in 250-104 "Bonding all piping and metal air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety." is only part of it. 250-110 Equipment fastened in place or connected by permanent wiring methods. Exposed noncurrent-carrying metal parts of fixed equipment likely to become energized shall be grounded under any of the following conditions: 1)Where within 8ft vertically or 5 ft horizontally of ground or grounded metal objects and subject to contact by persons. 2) Where located in a wet or damp location and not isolated There are six conditions in all but these two apply to most situations. Neal, Thanks for the offer of help. If you want to e-mail me the # I guess it couldn't hurt to have around.

Very cool. That would be a first for me. I wouldn't worry too much, the wall on that pipe is likely a quarter inch thick or better. Anyway, it's still metal... not like it's as soft as silly putty of something. Like Mike said, the gas company recently hooked up what looks like a fairly new meter to it.

Joe - Just incase your not aware, the suretest can give you a false reading of a false ground if you are too close, within 10' of the main panel due to the fact that the Neutral and ground are bonded there. If the panel was just under your feet in the basement you may have had a false reading. On a side note. I chose the Suretest over the three light years ago for the fact that it detected false grounds and gave other info I thought might be useful, but since then have been continuously frustrated with the poor quality of the instrument itself. It is by no means 100% reliable. Mine is on limited time before it makes a trip to the rifle range with me to serve as a target of satisfaction. Not sure what I will replace it with.

In a recent inspection I commented about the lack of by-pass jumpers on the vibration dampers of metal ducting for the HVAC system. I just got a call from the HVAC contractor saying there is no such requirement and that he even put in a call to someone in State Gov. that say's there is none. I'm nowhere near my books and my normal computer that has this stuff is down. Anyone have the specific NEC referance for this?

Ok, now define "accessible"... When I see one that has a shut off valve but it's in the firebox I recommend installing a second Dante' valve. (the keyed thingy). Cause if the regulator blows and the flames is out of control, who is going to stick their hand in the firebox to get at the valve in there? On the other hand, Gas is for sissy's. Real men cut down trees, split logs and build fires that would melt one of those zero clearance pieces of crap. But now that I think about it, the more sissy's using gas, the more wood for me[^]

It's an empty basement now... That was my first thought, film developing chemicals or something but, again the next section of pipe on the same line was clean and looked original.

So in the same house as the water main contraption there were just a couple sections of copper pipe that had this weird looking corrosion over the entire length. A couple sections look to have been replaced, others were original and just fine. Looks like maybe a pipe from a bad batch with contamination in the Copper or something acidic/caustic condensing on the cold pipe, but then again the next section in line right next to it looked original and spotless, so... I figured I'd throw it in the pit and see what comes back. I live in the same lake community just a few blocks away, nothing like this in mine or any of the other houses I've looked at around here. Its public water (from Twp. wells) so I don't think its acidic water. Ok, have at it. Image Insert: 177.97 KB

Ok, I'm at a loss. I look at it and it feels like I used to know what this was but I'm coming up empty. It's a strange configuration off the water main pipe. the main comes in and then T's off, one side goes to this contraption, the other goes up a couple feet then T's off again, one side of this T goes through the water meter, the other goes up into the house seemingly by-passing the water meter. Coming out of the water meter the pipe again hits a T where one end is joined with the pipe coming out of this contraption in some kind of loop. Image Insert: 158.68 KB It's basically a big can with two canted valves at the bottom and a drain petcock in between (Picture is fuzzy at that area). The house is built in 1950 so it isn't one of those ancient things that only Bill would know what it is... My knee jerk is that it's an old water meter but it doesn't make sense with the piping configuration. And no, I couldn't get the yellow thingy at the top off, it was fragile enough without me monkey fisting it. Download Attachment: Bottom of odd contraption.jpg 163.92 KB

I would also put expansion tanks on there. Thats a fair volume of water and as it heats up is volume will increase quite a bit. If you have a check valve on your city water supply you would absolutely need expansion tanks and if you don't it's a good idea anyway. Steam isn't necessarily a problem by itself. It will become a problem since, contrary to your statement, water doesn't boil at 212 degrees when it is under pressure... Under city pressure you could easily achieve 240 degrees without boiling, then the instant that pressure is dropped sufficiently to allow boiling, the entire mass of water flashes to steam instantly. Then your having a bad day. Another issue is temperature control. It's kind of hard to turn down a fire when your water is getting hot enough to make the steam problem a real issue. With the T&P valve in place and all you have protection but that is only after a problem develops. There are some fancy controllers out there that you could use with solenoid valves to basically dump water to cool a runaway situation but now your getting very complex and expensive.

Hey Mike, Anything on the upcoming lottery #'s in NJ???? [] Figured I'd try.

Everytime the Unbelievable corruption in NJ starts getting under my skin, I just think about Chicago... It makes me feel better. A little. There's a whole education to be had about "split" breakers as they are called around here. Not sure I can bear the carpal tunnel pain right now. As others have said, nothing wrong with the breakers, just in how they are used. Some panels are rated ???amp. 30/30 (30 slots/30 circuits max.) (no splits, tandems, piggybacks allowed). Others may be rated ???amp. 30/40 (30 slots/40 circuits max.) Ten full size breakers can be replaced with split breakers (Except in "Hey, that's our work" land). Either the label will spell out "30 circuits max" or the wiring diagram shows you that some may be doubled. If it is exposed you will see the difference in the tabs on the bus, some may be notched to allow split breakers, others not. Most would be electricians will pull out the simple metal clip that prevents the split from going where it does not belong. There are panels out there that are rated 8/16 - 12/24 - 12 -16 - 20/20 - or 20/40 so on and so forth. Except for the Cutler Hammer which has 42, all 40 slot panels do not allow splits. As Chad touched on, the biggest issue is if someone connects a multiwire circuit improperly pulling power from a split that is pulling power from only one side of the bus. But there are Quad splits that allow proper connection of either 220v or multiwire to either the two exterior terminals or the two center. Ok, my wrist hurts now.

Gotta disagree with Tim here. For quite some time (maybe always), all Cutler Hammer type CH breakers, both single and double pole, up to 30-amps are listed by the manufacturer for one 8-14 AWG Al/Cu conductor or two 10-14 AWG Cu only conductors. It's not on that label in the photo. It's embossed on the side of the breaker. See photo. Not sure how long it's been but it's definitely not always. I have one here on my desk, 20amp. single pole that does not have that listing on the casing or label. The terminal is different then the one you have pictured, looks like the one Jodi has pictured where the wire goes under the screw head, therein lies the difference, the one Jodi has is not rated for two conductors. I know I've had this breaker for at least ten, maybe 15 years. Not sure when the change took place.

Very cool book. Thanks for posting this Bill.

Looks like the inside end of an earth anchor to me. Ugliest patch job I ever saw too.

Ok, I'm not from one of those warm all the time States that has funky insects/spiders like that. What is it?