Marc Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Just received my copy of Certainteed's Shingle Applicator's Manual, 9th Edition. Page 93 says a starter course can consist of regular shingles with 5" taken off the bottom. But, with 1/2" overhang, that puts the nail line only 5/8th from the lower end of the flashing along the eaves. I've lifted the starter course on every house I've ever inspected in the last 8 years to check for proper installation of the felt. None were secured that close to the bottom. Most about 4 to 6" up. What did I miss? Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 What did I miss? Nurturing as child? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Just received my copy of Certainteed's Shingle Applicator's Manual, 9th Edition. Page 93 says a starter course can consist of regular shingles with 5" taken off the bottom. But, with 1/2" overhang, that puts the nail line only 5/8th from the lower end of the flashing along the eaves. I've lifted the starter course on every house I've ever inspected in the last 8 years to check for proper installation of the felt. None were secured that close to the bottom. Most about 4 to 6" up. What did I miss? Marc I occasionally see them installed as Certainteed described. But mostly I still see them done the way I used to do them -- with a three-tab strip turned 180 degrees and nailed along its upper edge. It's a poor practice. I think that the way Certainteed describes is fine. Aside from the fact that no one in your area seems to do it that way, what's the problem with it? - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 I occasionally see them installed as Certainteed described. But mostly I still see them done the way I used to do them -- with a three-tab strip turned 180 degrees and nailed along its upper edge. It's a poor practice. I think that the way Certainteed describes is fine. Aside from the fact that no one in your area seems to do it that way, what's the problem with it? - Jim Katen, Oregon Wind resistance is affected, which is a big thing here in hurricane country. If I start writing them all up, every roofer in town as well as builder, agent, seller, etc is going to be across the table from me with me waving my Certainteed Shingle Applicator's Manual at them. I don't know if I envy such a situation. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Hi, Doesn't that place the seal strip right there at the edge of the roof where you want the overlapping shingle in the first course to adhere to it? Your're just removing the 5-inch reveal so that the seal strip will activate and prevent the edges of the shingle from lifting. My father taught me to cut away the tabs and flip them 180° but that puts the adhesive strip about 5-1/2-inches from the edge of the roof and then you have to hand-adhere every shingle to the starter course. Sounds like Certainteed is trying to make the process a little easier. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Kienitz Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Wind rules for shingle fastening is a different animal along the Gulf Coast. I don't inspect down there anymore and they have changes the rules over recent years. I recall a mention about such when I was at a Certainteed class in the past year or so in Dallas. Don't have details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector57 Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Marc, I call out almost every roof with improper starter strip installation and include a graphic of the correct way to install. That graphic is right next to a picture of me lifting the free shingle tab up, most people get it. I don't know who started the bit about turning the shingle around 180 degrees but it sure is popular around here. Popular, but wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Marc, I call out almost every roof with improper starter strip installation and include a graphic of the correct way to install. That graphic is right next to a picture of me lifting the free shingle tab up, most people get it. I don't know who started the bit about turning the shingle around 180 degrees but it sure is popular around here. Popular, but wrong. I think the 180 turning thing is as old as asphalt composition shingles. I know that it goes back at least as far at the late '60s. Clearly, it's better to trim them & leave them right side up, but the ancient ways die hard. Up here, we often see 1x3 drip edge flashing. I'd really prefer that roofers not nail through the 3" leg on that flashing. If you were to do it Certainteed's way, the nails would only be about a half inch up from the drip edge and they'd puncture the flashing. If I were to install a roof tomorrow, I'd trim the starter strip but still place my nails 5" or 6" up from the drip edge. If I were concerned about wind, I'd seal it to the drip edge flashing with mastic. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 All the manufacturers are putting the adhesive on on the underside of the shingle at the bottom. I install the first course, nail it about three inches up from the bottom, then another course right on top with staggered seams. There's no reason to cut anything or turn anything upside down, the initial course glues down to the ice and water or drip and the next course glues to the initial course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2010 All the manufacturers are putting the adhesive on on the underside of the shingle at the bottom. I install the first course, nail it about three inches up from the bottom, then another course right on top with staggered seams. There's no reason to cut anything or turn anything upside down, the initial course glues down to the ice and water or drip and the next course glues to the initial course. How does the 1st course get adhered to the starter? The factory adhesive strip would be too high if you don't trim 5" off. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted December 24, 2010 Report Share Posted December 24, 2010 How does the 1st course get adhered to the starter? The factory adhesive strip would be too high if you don't trim 5" off. The trend is for the manufacturers to put the adhesive strip on the underside of the shingle instead of on the top as it always used to be. If you're using a shingle like that, it doesn't matter what you do with the starter strip. The first course will adhere to it along the leading edge anyway. Chad said "all" but that information must not have found its way out west yet. About half of the manufacturers out here put the adhesive on the bottom. The rest are still on the top. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted December 24, 2010 Report Share Posted December 24, 2010 I do whatever it says on the shingle pack I'm working with, and sometimes I make up my own if I think it's appropriate (horrors). I think good IWS, valley liners, and metal drip edge is way more important than any starter strip method. But, it's interesting to read this thread. The 180 method does die hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector57 Posted December 24, 2010 Report Share Posted December 24, 2010 All the manufacturers are putting the adhesive on on the underside of the shingle at the bottom. Not here in the sunny southwest. Some variants of laminated or architectural shingles might use a different approach, but standard 3 tabs are still made with the sealant strip on the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspector57 Posted December 24, 2010 Report Share Posted December 24, 2010 I do whatever it says on the shingle pack I'm working with, and sometimes I make up my own if I think it's appropriate (horrors). I think good IWS, valley liners, and metal drip edge is way more important than any starter strip method. But, it's interesting to read this thread. The 180 method does die hard. Wind is much more of a concern than IWS, valley liner and metal drip edge here although strangely the loose tabs on the edge of the roof are not nearly as susceptible to blow off as one would imagine. It is much more likely that a single shingle that is loose in the upper half of the roof plane will cause a problem than the entire row at the leading edge. I'm sure it has something to do with lift and acceleration as the wind passes over the roof but that is way beyond my pay grade[:-taped]. I just tell them to do it like the manufacturer says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted December 24, 2010 Report Share Posted December 24, 2010 I regretted writing "all" as soon as I hit "enter". I haven't seen an adhesive on top shingle for four or five years now. I know it's off topic, but the adhesive on bottom is just plain smarter- you can choke courses to fix an out of square roof and still have the adhesive in the right place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert1966 Posted December 27, 2010 Report Share Posted December 27, 2010 I have seen several storm chasing roofers in Houston after Hurricane Ike and most installed them as Jim noted in his first post. Flip them, cut off the corners and nail them along the tar line 6" up from the edge then lay on the first course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondgal Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 My friend has done 100's of roofs and he flips the shingle upside down and nails it along the tar line. Then you cut your book and start in the left corner of the roof, assuming you are right handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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