Amn Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 I'm looking at a house to buy in Houston and have dodging houses with aluminum wiring that seem as prevalent around here as the kudzu . This house's panel is all copper wiring, but I noticed a breaker that was labeled co-alum and that got me wondering (see attached). I took off an outlet and the wire around the screw was solid copper, but silly me, I forgot to check for pigtailing in the outlet box -I'll get that next visit. Is there any reason why you'd pigtail a copper-alum system? I did manage to get a photo of the wiring sheathing in the attic. It's labeled "NARAX TYPE NM 14-2T 600V" (see attached). I don't see the word "Aluminum" anywhere on the sheathing at all. Any guesses if this is co-alum? Google reveals nothing on the sheathing label. Any help is appreciated. A Download Attachment: Breaker.JPG 489.66 KB Download Attachment: Sheathing.JPG 359.85 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Hi, The CU-AL on the breakers means that they are approved for copper or aluminum wiring. That is copper cable. You should be more concerned with the panel. It's a Zinsco. Bad Ju-Ju. Get rid of it or double your fire insurance. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 What Mike said. Zinsco bad...... As far as "Co-Alu", I see this all the time on lots of components. In fact, it's written on the listing sheet of my 1 year old Siemens service equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 The wire in your pictures is copper. The house looks like it was built in the 50s, before aluminum wiring became popular. As Mike said, the "CU-AL" rating simply means that it's rated for copper or aluminum. BTW, it looks newer than the other breakers. If you buy the house, dump the Zinsco panel. They're fussy little buggers. That snakeskin romex isn't the greatest stuff in the world either. It can get very brittle over time, particularly where it's been subject to heat, and it doesn't like abrasion, for instance when it's installed near an attic or crawlspace entrance and clods tend to step on it or crawl over it every few months. Take a piece in your hand and bend it, if it makes cracking and snapping sounds, replace it. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Oh Yeah, I forgot to mention that. Thanks for reminding me Jim. That top breaker is newer than the others. It's one of the replacement breakers made in South America that used to be the only option besides new old stock for anyone looking for Zinsco breakers, until a few years ago when Thomas & Betts bought the tooling equipment and the rights to the Zinsco name. Those also have a poor reputation. OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted March 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Excellent responses! Thanks all. And thanks for the tip on the Zinsco panel. I was happy seeing that it wasn't a Federal Pacific, now it seems to be the same concern under another name. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Same oh same oh. I'd rather have alum than Zinsco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal Lewis Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Mr Amn, The wiring in the pic is 14 gauge. The smallest you will see aluminum is 12 gauge. Mike, I know you don't mean that the T&B breakers have a poor reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Hi, Nope, I'm talking about pre-Thomas & Betts. For years, the only way you could find a Zinsco breaker was to purchase them used or new old stock from places like The Breaker Broker and other electrical outlets. At the same time, you could get look-alikes at the orange box that were made in South America and were pieces of doo-doo. Thomas and Betts is probably making decent Zinsco replacement breakers. That still doesn't correct the problems with the Zinsco boxes - insufficient bending room, crowding, no way to know which bus you're connected to without unplugging the breaker to examine it, aluminum buses that get all pitted from arcing, breakers that are loose due to loose tangs, etc. There are a ton of 'em out there still, but I wouldn't want to live in a house that had one - new T & B breakers or not. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Amn I'm looking at a house to buy in Houston and have dodging houses with aluminum wiring that seem as prevalent around here as the kudzu. I didn't know there was any kudzu in Texas. We've got tons of that infernal-eternal take-over artist around here. My sympathies. Brian G. Wanna Recipie Book for It? [:-yuck] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted March 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Brian G. I didn't know there was any kudzu in Texas. We've got tons of that infernal-eternal take-over artist around here. My sympathies. I was waiting on one of you guys to call me on that. I was being a smart-alec, posted it, then wondered if there really was Kudzu here. Again, thanks for the help guys. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Amn Originally posted by Brian G. . . . I was being a smart-alec, posted it, then wondered if there really was Kudzu here. I'll bet there is. The stuff has made its way to Oregon for crying out loud. It made the front page of the papers up here a few years ago when it first appeared. I think they nuked it or something like that. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted March 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2005 Update: I had the house inspected and guess what the inspector found? The panel is energized and not grounded!!! (can you say "back away slowly...") Needless to say, that contract is terminated and we're looking at an alternate property now. The homeseller had the gall to ask me what the big deal was and that a "home shield warranty" would cover it. The house had plenty of other concerns, active termites in the garage being a main one. I don't think I've ever felt so good about cratering a deal that fast before. I just want to pass along an easy example of the value inspectors bring a homebuyer; in this case, potentially life threatening. I'm just waiting for the next quip from a realtor about how nit-picky inspectors are. Suffice it to say, I now carry my contact tester in my pocket whenever I go near any panel and I know not to touch anything with "Zinsco" on the front of it. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspectort Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 Or FEDERAL-PACIFIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 Originally posted by Amn Update: I had the house inspected and guess what the inspector found? The panel is energized and not grounded!!! (can you say "back away slowly...") I doubt that the panel enclosure was really energized. Did your inspector assume that by using a volt stick? In your picture there's an intact bonding strap connecting the enclosure to the neutral terminal bar. There was probably a grounding problem, but it wouldn't have been possible for the panel enclosure to be energized. Needless to say, that contract is terminated and we're looking at an alternate property now. The homeseller had the gall to ask me what the big deal was and that a "home shield warranty" would cover it. The house had plenty of other concerns, active termites in the garage being a main one. I don't think I've ever felt so good about cratering a deal that fast before. I just want to pass along an easy example of the value inspectors bring a homebuyer; in this case, potentially life threatening. I'm just waiting for the next quip from a realtor about how nit-picky inspectors are. Suffice it to say, I now carry my contact tester in my pocket whenever I go near any panel and I know not to touch anything with "Zinsco" on the front of it. A It sounds like the house was a dud. Congratulations on walking away. BTW, don't rely on those non-contact voltage detectors. They're very unreliable. And if one lights up near a panel, it almost certainly does *not* mean that the panel is hot. I agree about Zinsco and FPE. If you buy a house with either of these things in it, replace them at once. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted March 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by Jim KatenI doubt that the panel enclosure was really energized. Did your inspector assume that by using a volt stick? In your picture there's an intact bonding strap connecting the enclosure to the neutral terminal bar. There was probably a grounding problem, but it wouldn't have been possible for the panel enclosure to be energized. When he touched the housing he got a hell of a shock and it blew the front panel off the housing! I don't think that he would have touched it if I hadn't photographed it a few days prior... BTW, don't rely on those non-contact voltage detectors. They're very unreliable. And if one lights up near a panel, it almost certainly does *not* mean that the panel is hot. Pardon my ignorance, but do you mean the metal-tipped testers with the red bulb that lights when touching a surface carrying current (resembling a screwdriver) ? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by Amn When he touched the housing he got a hell of a shock and it blew the front panel off the housing! Did you see this? If there were four screws holding the housing on, how could it have been blown off? If one or more of the screws had already been removed, then why didn't he get shocked before removing the first screw? It sounds to me like one of the screws cut through some wire insulation as he was removing it. That would do exactly what you described. To repeat: if the panel enclosure were bonded to the neutral terminal bar, as it appears to be in your photo, then the panel could not have just sat there in an energized state. Something would have melted. I don't think that he would have touched it if I hadn't photographed it a few days prior.... Ah Ha! So you admit having been the last one to have touched it, eh? Perhaps when you put one of those screws back in, it came within a micron of touching the wire. Pardon my ignorance, but do you mean the metal-tipped testers with the red bulb that lights when touching a surface carrying current (resembling a screwdriver) ? A No. I'm talking about the non-contact voltage detectors, commonly called volt sticks. They resemble a fat pen. They have a plastic-coated tip that resembles a screwdriver. When you place it near an energized wire or object, they detect the electric field and blink, beep or do both. They're kind of useful, but inaccurate. I've had them give both false positives and false negatives. Never trust them where life-safety is concerned. Always verify with a wiggy, a multi-meter or even a neon tester. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David C. Argabright Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Neil; Are you positive that Aluminum was manufactured in 12 guage or larger? I'm sure I've seen 14 guage on 15 amp breakers and called it for two reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspectort Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 If you ever were curious about what caused aluminum wiring to get a bad rap? Does Beverly Hills Supper Club Southgate Ky. ring any bells? 165 people burned to death or died of smoke inhalation in one night in 1977. If you would like to read more about the litigation that led to aluminum being outlawed read this http://www.enquirer.com/beverlyhills/litigation.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Hi, I wasn't aware that aluminum wiring was ever "outlawed". Care to expound upon that statement? OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspectort Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hey Mike, Thanks for catching that. I misspoke. Its not illegal. However the legal ramifications for using or manufacturing aluminum wiring in smaller sizes such as #12,#10,or even #8 for branch circuts makes its use in smaller sizes impracticle. In my area, you can't find anything smaller than a #6 NMC aluminum conductor. Not to mention the pain in the ass it would be to put a #10 aluminum wire on a 20 amp appliance circut recepticle. Sorry to be missleading. Mike, what years and where were you stationed in the Army? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 August '75 thru April 1996 Dix, McClellan, Gordon, Bragg, Red Cloud (Kor), Devens, Presidio of Monterey, Bremerhaven (Ger), McClellan, Bragg, Zweibruecken (Ger), Desert Storm (Saudi & Iraq), Yongsan (Kor) and Carson in that order. OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amn Posted April 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Originally posted by AmnWhen he touched the housing he got a hell of a shock and it blew the front panel off the housing! Originally posted by Jim Katen Did you see this? If there were four screws holding the housing on, how could it have been blown off? Some clarification: the swing-up outer panel blew off. The face plate, held in place by screws, remained. I did not see it blow off, I only saw it afterward. Originally posted by AmnI don't think that he would have touched it if I hadn't photographed it a few days prior.... Originally posted by Jim Katen Ah Ha! So you admit having been the last one to have touched it, eh? Perhaps when you put one of those screws back in, it came within a micron of touching the wire. Well, it wasn't energized when I screwed the one small screw into the bottom of the face plate -otherwise I prob would not be posting this ! That screw was a wide-diameter, machine screw, prob no longer than 3/8 inch. I don't remember it going into the panel housing very deep at all. Looking back at the original photo that I posted, doesn't the dual 40 amp breaker look out of position? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Originally posted by Amn Originally posted by Amn Looking back at the original photo that I posted, doesn't the dual 40 amp breaker look out of position? A Yes. Slightly. That's common with Zinsco equipment. The bus bars are simply two vertical bars of aluminum. There aren't any specific places or slots for a breaker. If there were only one breaker in the panel, you could slide it up & down the whole length of the bars. If you push more at one end than the other, the breaker will sit cocked at an angle like the one in your picture. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdramis Posted April 21, 2005 Report Share Posted April 21, 2005 Ok I am new to the business, I have a house wih zinsco breakers. Other than being very expensive at home depot what is so dangerous about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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