Peculiar radon issue

[mike127]

Hi we are looking to buy our second home in warren county, NJ and the seller has chosen to not waive their right to confidentiality with regards to radon tests and/or existing mitigation systems. I understand a lot of the county, along with the surrounding counties, are potential hot spots for radon.

The owners of the house are the original owners and the house was built in 2003. When we did a walk through on the house, we noticed there was a circuit breaker labeled "radon," but there was no mitigation system to be found anywhere. A recent discussion with the seller, though our agents, revealed they had the fan, tubing, etc. that the builder left them in case they wanted to install it.

Would a radon test have been mandatory before the house was built? Or maybe it is common practice to install wiring for such a system just in case a problem comes up in the future? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

[Inspectorjoe]

Hi we are looking to buy our second home in warren county, NJ and the seller has chosen to not waive their right to confidentiality with regards to radon tests and/or existing mitigation systems.

I'm not familiar with that. What does it mean? That if they know their house has high radon levels, they don't have to disclose it?

I understand a lot of the county, along with the surrounding counties, are potential hot spots for radon.

Warren County sits on the Reading Prong, which is a geological formation containing uranium deposits that runs from Reading, Pa., across New Jersey and into New York. Just across the river in Easton, uranium was mined for a time in the 1920's. So yes, Warren County can be considered a 'hot spot'.

The owners of the house are the original owners and the house was built in 2003. When we did a walk through on the house, we noticed there was a circuit breaker labeled "radon," but there was no mitigation system to be found anywhere. A recent discussion with the seller, though our agents, revealed they had the fan, tubing, etc. that the builder left them in case they wanted to install it.

Either what the seller said evolved as it was passed on through the agents, or the seller is lying. No builder would leave radon mitigation materials (including an expensive fan) for the new home buyer "just in case". Often a passive system is installed, but that is simply a 4" pipe that originates in the slab and extends up through the roof. That's it. No other parts and no electrical hookup is included.

Would a radon test have been mandatory before the house was built? Or maybe it is common practice to install wiring for such a system just in case a problem comes up in the future? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

Do you mean testing the soil? The EPA doesn't recommend it, because levels can fluctuate widely in a relatively small area. Testing wouldn't be reliable unless a large number of samples were taken, which would be prohibitively expensive.

I'm sure someone who works in NJ and is familiar with NJ protocols will chime in.

Have you had the house tested? That's what needs to be done. Everything else is irrelevant.

[Steven Hockstein]

The NJ UCC (Uniform Construction Code) has a radon hazard sub-code. The simple answer to your question is that a house built in 2003 was required to be set-up for easy installation of an active radon mitigation system. There should be a passive system installed. The builder may have roughed the wiring for the fan because high levels are so common in Warren County. It is not an unusual circumstance.

You should get the house tested as part of the purchasing processs

The following is a link to a NJ DEP Map of NJ and radon levels reported. Licensed radon testing companies are required to report the levels of all tests by zip code. The state has used the data for this map:

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/rpp/radon/radonmap.htm

If you need a home and radon inspection, I will be happy to help you.

Good Luck!!

[mike127]

I'm not familiar with that. What does it mean? That if they know their house has high radon levels, they don't have to disclose it?

I'm not a lawyer but it basically means the seller is not obligated to disclose information on the testing and/or treatment for radon to the potential buyer (let alone anyone) unless we're in a contract. Here's the NJ statute referenced from the disclosure form: http://law.onecle.com/new-jersey/26-hea ... 2d-73.html.

So yes, if they know there's a problem they can choose "No" on the form (which they did) to not waive their right to confidentiality.

Do you mean testing the soil? The EPA doesn't recommend it, because levels can fluctuate widely in a relatively small area. Testing wouldn't be reliable unless a large number of samples were taken, which would be prohibitively expensive.

I'm sure someone who works in NJ and is familiar with NJ protocols will chime in.

Have you had the house tested? That's what needs to be done. Everything else is irrelevant.

Yes, a test via the soil. Makes sense so maybe they never had it tested when the house was built. We didn't have the house tested yet as we're not in a "formal" contract yet, but we wanted to gain as much knowledge as possible from experienced folks that deal with this stuff.

Thanks so much for the help!

Mike

[mike127]

The NJ UCC (Uniform Construction Code) has a radon hazard sub-code. The simple answer to your question is that a house built in 2003 was required to be set-up easy installation of an active radon mitigation system. There should be a passive system installed. The builder may have roughed the wiring for the fan because high levels are so common in Warren County. It is not an unusual circumstance.

You should get the house tested as part of the purchasing processs

The following is a link to a NJ DEP Map of NJ and radon levels reported. Licensed radon testing companies are required to report the levels of all tests by zip code. The state has used the data for this map:

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/rpp/radon/radonmap.htm

If you need a home and radon inspection, I will be happy to help you.

Good Luck!!

This is very helpful! This helps put things into perspective on what we can expect going forward.

One question, though: is a radon test required for a certificate of occupancy in areas of high radon potential?

Thanks!

Mike

[Darren]

Mike,

As Steven said, the house should be set-up for radon. If you go into the basement & attic, you should see a 4 inch PVC pipe that runs thru the roof with 'Radon' written on it. An outlet should also be installed in the attic near this pipe.

Go here http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/ about 1/2 way down the center you'll see radon 'sub-code'

[mike127]

Mike,

As Steven said, the house should be set-up for radon. If you go into the basement & attic, you should see a 4 inch PVC pipe that runs thru the roof with 'Radon' written on it. An outlet should also be installed in the attic near this pipe.

Go here http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/ about 1/2 way down the center you'll see radon 'sub-code'

Ok we'll take another look but there was no PVC coming out of the roof nor in the basement that we could see. Thanks for the info and link!

[Scottpat]

Just have the house tested and if it is high, have the owner install a proper mitigation system. If they won't do that then find another home!

[Jim Katen]

Just have the house tested and if it high, have the owner install a proper mitigation system. If they won't do that then find another home!

Or just bear in mind that short-term radon screenings, such as the ones done for real estate transactions, are a complete waste of time and a sham besides. They're designed to make everyone feel better and think that they've determined something about radon levels in the home. They're a panacea.

If you're really concerned about the levels of radon in the house, do a long-term test (1 year is a good sample period) and move forward from there.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Scottpat]

Just have the house tested and if it high, have the owner install a proper mitigation system. If they won't do that then find another home!

Or just bear in mind that short-term radon screenings, such as the ones done for real estate transactions, are a complete waste of time and a sham besides. They're designed to make everyone feel better and think that they've determined something about radon levels in the home. They're a panacea.

If you're really concerned about the levels of radon in the house, do a long-term test (1 year is a good sample period) and move forward from there.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Very true!

[mike127]

Jim/Scott, I wish I had a year to do the test! But something good to know if I decide to move in this area to protect the family. Thanks for the tips!

Mike

[Bain]

Just have the house tested and if it high, have the owner install a proper mitigation system. If they won't do that then find another home!

Or just bear in mind that short-term radon screenings, such as the ones done for real estate transactions, are a complete waste of time and a sham besides. They're designed to make everyone feel better and think that they've determined something about radon levels in the home. They're a panacea.

If you're really concerned about the levels of radon in the house, do a long-term test (1 year is a good sample period) and move forward from there.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

I was NEHA certified for about a year, Jim. Aside from the handful of rules regarding measurement-device placement, you pretty much summed up everything salient I learned during the entire three-day certification course.

[Steven Hockstein]

Just have the house tested and if it high, have the owner install a proper mitigation system. If they won't do that then find another home!

Or just bear in mind that short-term radon screenings, such as the ones done for real estate transactions, are a complete waste of time and a sham besides. They're designed to make everyone feel better and think that they've determined something about radon levels in the home. They're a panacea.

If you're really concerned about the levels of radon in the house, do a long-term test (1 year is a good sample period) and move forward from there.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

If there are very high levels, you would want to know ASAP. I think a screening test for high levels is useful. Some of the highest radon level numbers I have seen were found in Western/Northern NJ. I am talking about numbers like 60 pCi/L and higher.

I agree that a long term follow-up when you are in control of the house is much more useful. I disagree that a screening test is a sham (when you do it correctly).

[Steven Hockstein]

FYI- There is no radon testing requirement that I know of for private homes in NJ.

Most real estate contracts for houses that I have seen include a provision for radon testing.

[Tom Raymond]

Just have the house tested and if it high, have the owner install a proper mitigation system. If they won't do that then find another home!

Or just bear in mind that short-term radon screenings, such as the ones done for real estate transactions, are a complete waste of time and a sham besides. They're designed to make everyone feel better and think that they've determined something about radon levels in the home. They're a panacea.

If you're really concerned about the levels of radon in the house, do a long-term test (1 year is a good sample period) and move forward from there.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

I was NEHA certified for about a year, Jim. Aside from the handful of rules regarding measurement-device placement, you pretty much summed up everything salient I learned during the entire three-day certification course.

Is there documentation supporting that position? I tend to agree with you guys on this and I would like some info for my library without having to wade through all the crapaganda.

Thanks,

Tom

[gtblum]

Just have the house tested and if it high, have the owner install a proper mitigation system. If they won't do that then find another home!

Or just bear in mind that short-term radon screenings, such as the ones done for real estate transactions, are a complete waste of time and a sham besides. They're designed to make everyone feel better and think that they've determined something about radon levels in the home. They're a panacea.

If you're really concerned about the levels of radon in the house, do a long-term test (1 year is a good sample period) and move forward from there.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

I was NEHA certified for about a year, Jim. Aside from the handful of rules regarding measurement-device placement, you pretty much summed up everything salient I learned during the entire three-day certification course.

Is there documentation supporting that position? I tend to agree with you guys on this and I would like some info for my library without having to wade through all the crapaganda.

Thanks,

Tom

Tom,

No paper work but, my brother inlaw is a senior rad tech at one of the local nuke plants and he says there's no way you can properly control and record accurate measurements with the commonly used methods in home testing. He thinks it's nothing less than a joke.

Funny thing about working in nuke plants. The word radon is never heard. It's "off gas". It loves plastic. When you exit the RCA and light the friskall up like a Christmas tree, they take your helmet, safety glasses, and badges, wipe them down, send you back to stand in front of a fan, and then usually you make it out. It's about the only thing I can think of that they don't flip out about when you're contaminated by it.

[Scottpat]

Regardless of what we all (including me) think about radon testing for RE transactions, it is what it is. The EPA or your specific state requirements and information is all we really have to go by.

Do I think that long term exposure to high radon levels is bad for ones health? Yep, I sure do.

[Tom Raymond]

"Do I think that long term exposure to high radon levels is bad for ones health? Yep, I sure do."

Long term exposure to just about anything is likely to be bad for one's health, "all things in moderation" they say.

I know that my area has a lot of radon potential, I know that I do not get referals from one of the local RE's specifically because I don't test for radon, yet I know of only 3 or 4 active mitigation systems and no passive systems, despite the fact that I have been in about 100 homes a year for the last decade or so. Seems to me that a couple of folks were sold a bill of goods. Despite the data, and the jittery RE, there are no mitigation companies, very few test companies, and next to no actual mitigation. Can't be that big a deal or someone would be making money from it.

I was hoping to find a reputable source stating what the majority of us here feel, that way I can support my position.

Tom

[gtblum]

I was hoping to find a reputable source stating what the majority of us here feel, that way I can support my position.

You will. When there's more money to be made by supporting that position. Just like anything else in this country.

I forget. Are eggs good or bad for you now?

[Tom Raymond]

Gary,

Nuke plants are strange places. The West Valley Demonstration Project is about 3 miles from here, and I occasionally get called to look at boken windows and such for repairs. I have to sit through a 30 minute safety video before I'm allowed on site, and then I can't bring anything in with me. I had to get property reciepts for my cell phone, camera and pocket knife the last time I was there. The place is crawling with engineers and maintenance crews, but no one is qualified to fix a broken window, and they won't let me bring in any tools to fix anything. The place is 30 years into decommissioning, and the end is no where in sight.

Tom

[gtblum]

Gary,

Nuke plants are strange places. The West Valley Demonstration Project is about 3 miles from here, and I occasionally get called to look at boken windows and such for repairs. I have to sit through a 30 minute safety video before I'm allowed on site, and then I can't bring anything in with me. I had to get property reciepts for my cell phone, camera and pocket knife the last time I was there. The place is crawling with engineers and maintenance crews, but no one is qualified to fix a broken window, and they won't let me bring in any tools to fix anything. The place is 30 years into decommissioning, and the end is no where in sight.

Tom

Sorry we're way off topic but, That's not a nuke plant. It's a spent fuel recycling plant.

It'll take you a minimum of four full days of on site training and testing to get beyond the fence of a nuke, and there's no end to the number of window fixers.