Covered porch/balcony waterproofing diagram

[Scottpat]

I'm looking for a diagram on a good method of waterproofing the decking of a covered balcony that will have tile for the flooring. It is open to the elements and it will get wet. It is also has a waterfront exposure on a large lake.

What I would like to find is a diagram on the proper way to flash the deck area along the edges (drip cap), and as it joins the home along the sides and back. Also a detail that shows a membrane in place so that tile can then be installed. I have searched and searched and I just can not find much on this. The deck area will have brickwork around the edges and the home is brick clad.

Any help will be more than greatly appreciated! Seems like the builder does not know how to waterproof the deck so tile can then been installed on it!

I have attached a photo of one issue that I pointed out and the builder just did not see it as a problem. In the photo the brick is about an inch higher than the wood decking, the camera was sitting on the decking. Notice the lack of any flashing..... Also below this balcony will be a finished room.

Click to Enlarge

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[kurt]

Woof.......danger zone......

If I have all this in mind correctly, you've got a tile balcony, yes?

If so, I'd be looking to introduce Troba drainage plane mat into the design. Or, one or another Schluter Systems products to provide a redundant water managed drainage plane under the tile.

As far as the rest of it, I'd probably custom break sheet metal flashing for all the areas you're describing. I'm becoming more and more reliant on my sheet metal fabricator for these sorts of problems.

[Tom Raymond]

There is an article about this very detail (waterproofing the inset balcony that is, not the tile) at either JLC or Fine Home Building, sorry can't remember which.

Where the hell is the architect? It's his job to provide detail drawings to clarify stupid design details like this one. There must be a real architect on a waterfront job, no?

[hausdok]

Hi Scott,

Click on the link below. Sorry I can't send you the articles directly; I just discovered that JLC apparently hadn't renewed my access to the archives and now I've gotta go through the old, "What the hell, I'm one of your moderator!" whine again before I'll be able to get back in there.

Maybe one of the brethren reading this has a JLCOnline Plus membership and will be willing to shoot you what you need via email.

Here's the string:

http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconl ... s__Rooftop

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Jim Katen]

Scott,

Go here:

http://www.tileusa.com/publication_main.htm

Buy the Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation.

If the area where this house is will experience freezing conditions, then it's very difficult to install tile that will stay put. I wouldn't use anything less than the Schluter System here:

http://www.schluter.com/5724.aspx

As Kurt said, you absolutely have to have excellent drainage below the tiles. Otherwise, water will freeze under them and cause them to pop off.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Marc]

Here is another JLC link with several possibilities but not necessarily in tile. You'll need to register to read the full article.

Marc

[Scottpat]

Thank you everyone! This is such a common and bad problem here in Nashville. Yes, we get freezing temps not as bad as Chicago but still we have snow, ice and really bad drivers!

This builder is lost and they are building in the 7 figure custom home market. I have already told the builder that he needs to use the Schluter System, his reply was that he left that up to his tile contractor. In other words I don't think he had a clue as to what I was talking about. As for an architect design, they have a house plan with little to no detail specs.

A question for folks in areas that do freeze... What materials are they putting down on balconies that are covered but are still outside in the weather?

This should be a good gig for the next 4 months or so.

[Rocon]

Fluid applied traffic coat or dex o tex work but need maintenance.

[Jim Katen]

. . . A question for folks in areas that do freeze... What materials are they putting down on balconies that are covered but are still outside in the weather? . . .

This stuff works and isn't too difficult to install:

http://www.duradek.com/

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Bill Kibbel]

I couldn't remember the name of it until I saw Jim K's post. It's "Tiledek". I saw it installed below limestone slabs on a huge balcony floor.

[Richard Moore]

Scott,

I'm not sure I'm going to be a big help because I have forgotten some of the details. But, I had to completely rebuild my front porch about 16 years ago. The existing concrete over wood porch was cracking and sagging due to rot, etc. I decided to go with tile over a very sturdy frame and plywood with backer board. I poured solid concrete for the new steps (also tiled). I do remember seeking advice from the local tile company I bought the tile from regarding exterior tiling over wood and followed their recommendation for tile quality/type and a roll-on waterproofing/isolation membrane. All I can remember is that it was very thick and pinkish and quite expensive. It may have been RedGard, but that's just a guess. I'm fairly sure that it was the last thing on the underlayment before the thinset and tile although I may have "doubled up" and used it directly on the ply as well (old brain forget stuff but I do tend to overbuild things!).

Anyway...It's a full width "rocking chair" porch and 16 years later I still don't have any cracked tiles or cracked grout. So it seemed to have worked although I'm by no means recommending it over a sheet membrane.

[ejager]

Mer-Krete Systems has a list of Exterior Detail Drawings here:

http://www.merkrete.com/merkrete/clr-dt-menu.htm

I particularly like the the "Exterior Deck Over Occupied Space - DUAL MEMBRANE SYSTEM"

http://www.merkrete.com/merkrete/ExteriorDeck-35.htm

[Jim Katen]

Mer-Krete Systems has a list of Exterior Detail Drawings here:

http://www.merkrete.com/merkrete/clr-dt-menu.htm

I particularly like the the "Exterior Deck Over Occupied Space - DUAL MEMBRANE SYSTEM"

http://www.merkrete.com/merkrete/ExteriorDeck-35.htm

There are many similar systems. The problem with all of them is that they're highly dependent on the installer performing a long series of complicated tasks perfectly. In most cases, the installer screws up one of more of the tasks and the deck leaks, or the tiles pop loose -- or both.

After inspecting many of these systems over many years, I've come to believe that the simpler systems are the most likely to give satisfaction. That's why I like Duradek and its ilk. It's one layer that functions as the waterproofing layer and the walking surface. If there's a screw up, it's easy to see, and often easy to cure, the problem. If it's not curable, it's easy to tear off the product & start again. Try tearing up a Merkrete or Desert Crete system sometime.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[ejager]

There are many similar systems. The problem with all of them is that they're highly dependent on the installer performing a long series of complicated tasks perfectly.

hmmm.... Although there is a certain logic to its easier to redo if/when the installer screws up, I hope that we are still able to find and employ people who take pride in what they do.

It always comes down to workmanship...and having seen some of the local installers, and installations, of the ilk (who are no longer in business), I hope for better.

[Jim Katen]

There are many similar systems. The problem with all of them is that they're highly dependent on the installer performing a long series of complicated tasks perfectly.

hmmm.... Although there is a certain logic to its easier to redo if/when the installer screws up, I hope that we are still able to find and employ people who take pride in what they do.

It always comes down to workmanship...and having seen some of the local installers, and installations, of the ilk (who are no longer in business), I hope for better.

Hope ain't going to get you a leak-proof deck. Maybe I'm jaded because I've been involved in three investigations into failed waterproof decks over the last two years. In every case, the installer took pride in his installation and insisted that it was fine - as the water drip, drip, dripped into the house.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[jingjing]

Also a detail that shows a membrane in place so that tile can then be installed. I have searched and searched and I just can not find much on this. The deck area will have brickwork around the edges and the home is brick clad??

[Jim Katen]

Also a detail that shows a membrane in place so that tile can then be installed. I have searched and searched and I just can not find much on this. The deck area will have brickwork around the edges and the home is brick clad??

It's not just about the membrane. (Everyone always thinks it's about the membrane.) It's about a drainage plane under the brick or tile.

Look here:

http://www.schluter.com/5724.aspx

[Scottpat]

After about two weeks of delays this is what was sent to me yesterday by the builder. This is the balcony waterproofing diagram/design that was created by an architect for this home.

Download Attachment: Tile Membrane Detail Edge.pdf

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[Marc]

Isn't there conditioned space below? The drainage plane behind the veneer (left side of drawing) goes straight down into it. It seems that this architect doesn't believe in the need for a drainage plane beneath the tile. Laticrete says that the Hydroban is for 'Terraces and Balconies over unoccupied spaces'.

Marc

[Scottpat]

Isn't there conditioned space below? The drainage plane behind the veneer (left side of drawing) goes straight down into it. It seems that this architect doesn't believe in the need for a drainage plane beneath the tile. Laticrete says that the Hydroban is for 'Terraces and Balconies over unoccupied spaces'.

Marc

Yes and no as for the finished room. I have learned that it is being built as an enclosed space that will be open to the outdoors? Apparently the owners have changed the plans to make the space below this area basically a screened in room that will have windows that can be pulled down to enclose the space. It will have it's own HVAC (Small LG Ductless heat pump system).

I have expressed the same concern with the flashing and drainage plane at the rear wall.

[kurt]

God Bless the architect, but it won't work. There's no drainage plane, no water management, only waterproofing.

I don't think there will be water in the space below, but I think the tile will go to blazes pretty quickly.

[Tom Raymond]

Silicone caulk at the flashing details, drainage planes that dump behind the veneer, the wrong membrane in the wrong position in the sequence, and my personal favorite - copper flashing under the aluminum Schluter edge cap.

It's nice to see that he's taking a systems approach to design failure. What a putz.

[Jim Katen]

After about two weeks of delays this is what was sent to me yesterday by the builder. This is the balcony waterproofing diagram/design that was created by an architect for this home.

Download Attachment: Tile Membrane Detail Edge.pdf

181.52 KB

1: Unless the thinset application is perfect with no voids, water will find its way into voids between the tile and the Hydroban. When it's cold out, the water will freeze and tiles will pop loose.

2: If there are any imperfections in the installation of the Hydroban, it will leak. The mud bed and the felt will do nothing to stop the leaks.

3: The installers *will* screw up the brick veneer/deck flashing. In order for there to be any chance of avoiding a screw up, the architect should provide a real detail of this area.

4: Is there another detail showing how guardrails will be integrated?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Terence McCann]

Interesting read - something I need more work at.

Does anyone have a detail of a drainage plane as it might relate to this application?

[Terence McCann]

and my personal favorite - copper flashing under the aluminum Schluter edge cap.

A perfect setup for electrolysis no? Just add water to speed up the process.