Insulation Identification

[gtblum]

And, this is?

Click to Enlarge

67.86 KB

[Jim Katen]

And, this is?

Vermiculite. No question.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[gtblum]

Thank you.

Now back to my little rant.

Client A the buyer, is a 24 year old kid whose father is a big shot and won't let the kid take a breath without his say so. He also has a slightly overbearing personality.

Client B is selling this house, a lake front cottage, and buying another house. Somehow I end up with all three inspections. The same realtor is involved in all three.

The boy's report has this picture with an explanation of what it is. The dad gets excited, the realtor arranges an inspection by a so called insulating contractor who tells everyone, there is no vermiculite in the place. The realtor stupidly calls me and says, you're wrong, there is none in the home. I'm what?

I don't live in the big city. This is north podunk NY where everyone knows everyone. I can't afford to have these people pissed at me because someone lied.

On Friday the realtor called me again about the Qdeck situation on the client B house. (See other post)

I tend to let things stew and either let it go, or open both barrels. Her timing was bad.

This whole mess is a direct result of an unknowing client(s) being lead by the nose by someone whose only interest was in their commission.

It's bullshit, it's wrong, and little by little I'm going to keep on trickling the truth to as many as I can.

We do get paid to tell the truth, right?

[kurt]

We do get paid to tell the truth, right?

Yep, we do.

I did a job several years ago for a guy from Nepal who, after the inspection, told me "you have the best job in the world....all you have to do is tell the truth!".

I've got that quote on my office wall.

[mgbinspect]

And, this is?

Vermiculite. No question.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

The good news: Throw a couple grow lights up in the attic and you can grow anything! [:-eyebrow

[Mark P]

Ask the realtor to ask the "Insulation Contractor" what the stuff in the picture is - and ask him to put it in writing and sign his name and reputation to it - like you did.

[gtblum]

Ask the realtor to ask the "Insulation Contractor" what the stuff in the picture is - and ask him to put it in writing and sign his name and reputation to it - like you did.

Hahaha. You must have heard me.

[Tom Raymond]

There is a really nice (they must have paid someone else to produce it) pdf on the EPA website about vermiculite insulation. You should go download it. The good news is the RE won't be able to dispute it, the bad news is the EPA recommends leaving it in place. You do what ever needs to done up there, then blow 2 feet of cellulose over it, then forget all about it.

[hausdok]

And, this is?

Click to Enlarge

67.86 KB

Agree,

Looks like vermiculite. A macro closeup would certainly make it a slam dunk to be sure, but it certainly looks like it. Did you pick up a piece and compress it between two fingers? Did it compress?

I knew about the EPA recommendation. I've been telling folks for years not to mess with the stuff when it's buried under a layer of cells. It's only when some idiot has been up in the attic to do work and has shoveled the insulation over to one side into a pile, mixing it all up and exposing the vermiculite that I recommend they consider re-covering it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[hausdok]

There is a really nice (they must have paid someone else to produce it) pdf on the EPA website about vermiculite insulation. You should go download it. The good news is the RE won't be able to dispute it, the bad news is the EPA recommends leaving it in place. You do what ever needs to done up there, then blow 2 feet of cellulose over it, then forget all about it.

Hi Tom,

Thanks, I grabbed it and posted it to TIJ's library. Folks can now grab it here.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[gtblum]

And, this is?

Click to Enlarge

67.86 KB

Agree,

Looks like vermiculite. A macro closeup would certainly make it a slam dunk to be sure, but it certainly looks like it. Did you pick up a piece and compress it between two fingers? Did it compress?

I knew about the EPA recommendation. I've been telling folks for years not to mess with the stuff when it's buried under a layer of cells. It's only when some idiot has been up in the attic to do work and has shoveled the insulation over to one side into a pile, mixing it all up and exposing the vermiculite that I recommend they consider re-covering it.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

No question about it, Mike. It's vermiculite.

I tell them the same thing. Leave it alone.

I do have one question about it. When this stuff is loose like in the pic, can particulates become airborne from wierd things like vibrations from the impact of a slamming door, or even just windy days?

[gtblum]

There is a really nice (they must have paid someone else to produce it) pdf on the EPA website about vermiculite insulation. You should go download it. The good news is the RE won't be able to dispute it, the bad news is the EPA recommends leaving it in place. You do what ever needs to done up there, then blow 2 feet of cellulose over it, then forget all about it.

I've seen that, Tom.

At this point, I really don't care what they do. They're all happy. For now.

When they figure it out, they can go to war with each other.

I did my job.

[Tom Raymond]

I do have one question about it. When this stuff is loose like in the pic, can particulates become airborne from wierd things like vibrations from the impact of a slamming door, or even just windy days?

The short answer is yes. It takes very little air movement to disturb dust particles and asbestos fibers are smaller than dust, that's a big part of what makes them dangerous. When you run into vermiculite give them the EPA document, it gives your client good info that is easy to understand, provides specific warnings for loose fill in walls, and covers your ass.

[gtblum]

I do have one question about it. When this stuff is loose like in the pic, can particulates become airborne from wierd things like vibrations from the impact of a slamming door, or even just windy days?

The short answer is yes. It takes very little air movement to disturb dust particles and asbestos fibers are smaller than dust, that's a big part of what makes them dangerous. When you run into vermiculite give them the EPA document, it gives your client good info that is easy to understand, provides specific warnings for loose fill in walls, and covers your ass.

The link is part of my boiler. All they have to do is click it from the report.

[Tom Raymond]

Then yours and your client's keesters are sufficiently covered.

[kurt]

The article states it looks like Mica. I thought it was Mica, in an expanded form.

Asbestos is friable in atmosphere, i.e., it can degrade and poof out little microfibers on it's own without being disturbed if it's in relatively pure form. Disturbing greatly increases friability.

At least, I seem to recall that from my asbestos licensing class many years ago.

[hausdok]

Here's a better question;

Do any of you guys ever point out the fact that practically anywhere they are in an urban environment they've been breathing asbestos fibers every day of their lives and will continue to do so until the day they leave the planet?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Marc]

Here's a better question;

Do any of you guys ever point out the fact that practically anywhere they are in an urban environment they've been breathing asbestos fibers every day of their lives and will continue to do so until the day they leave the planet?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Where does that fact come from?

Marc

[kurt]

I can't dig up the article, but I recall reading somewhere they've identified asbestos fiber in the polar ice, i.e., it circles the globe on air currents.

It's everywhere, in everything. In an old urban environment like mine, we put it on cornflakes.

[gtblum]

Here's a better question;

Do any of you guys ever point out the fact that practically anywhere they are in an urban environment they've been breathing asbestos fibers every day of their lives and will continue to do so until the day they leave the planet?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

We have a Supermodified track here. There's a roof over most of the grandstands. What's funny to me, is that the same people who worry about this stuff, think nothing of sitting under that roof week after week, breathing in burnt nitro methane, rubber, and brake dust. What's even funnier, is you can't smoke in the grandstands.

[hausdok]

Here's a better question;

Do any of you guys ever point out the fact that practically anywhere they are in an urban environment they've been breathing asbestos fibers every day of their lives and will continue to do so until the day they leave the planet?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Where does that fact come from?

Marc

Uh, hello? Earth to Marc,...earth to Marc,...come in, Marc!

When all of those brake pads on automobiles wore out over the past 100 years where do you think all that asbestos dust went?

Back in the day before they'd realized asbestos caused cancer, where do you think that cloud of dust blown out of brake drums in every auto shop on the planet went?

Back before they knew it caused cancer and they demolished buildings with it wrapped around the pipe, where do you think all that dust went?

These are just a few examples, I could keep this up all day long.

Trying not to be exposed to asbestos fiber is like trying not to be exposed to mold. It ain't gonna happen - it's ubiquitous in our environment.

Sure, EPA and the scientists won't come right out and say it; what would be the point of panicking people over something that we caused that can't be controlled?

They have a town north of me where asbestos is naturally occurring in the soil and minerals in the land and they say the whole area is contaminated with it. When they'd discovered that, some folks packed up and moved away and left their homes to be foreclosed on. Can you imagine what would happen if folks realized how prevalent asbestos is in the environment?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Marc]

Here's a better question;

Do any of you guys ever point out the fact that practically anywhere they are in an urban environment they've been breathing asbestos fibers every day of their lives and will continue to do so until the day they leave the planet?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Where does that fact come from?

Marc

Uh, hello? Earth to Marc,...earth to Marc,...come in, Marc!

When all of those brake pads on automobiles wore out over the past 100 years where do you think all that asbestos dust went?

Back in the day before they'd realized asbestos caused cancer, where do you think that cloud of dust blown out of brake drums in every auto shop on the planet went?

Back before they knew it caused cancer and they demolished buildings with it wrapped around the pipe, where do you think all that dust went?

These are just a few examples, I could keep this up all day long.

Trying not to be exposed to asbestos fiber is like trying not to be exposed to mold. It ain't gonna happen - it's ubiquitous in our environment.

Sure, EPA and the scientists won't come right out and say it; what would be the point of panicking people over something that we caused that can't be controlled?

They have a town north of me where asbestos is naturally occurring in the soil and minerals in the land and they say the whole area is contaminated with it. When they'd discovered that, some folks packed up and moved away and left their homes to be foreclosed on. Can you imagine what would happen if folks realized how prevalent asbestos is in the environment?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

I see.... it comes from you. Ok, that's alright. Just wanted to know, is all.

Marc

[gtblum]

I can't dig up the article, but I recall reading somewhere they've identified asbestos fiber in the polar ice, i.e., it circles the globe on air currents.

It's everywhere, in everything. In an old urban environment like mine, we put it on cornflakes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1475408/pdf/envhper00499-0224.pdf

[Tom Raymond]

And it's still being mined and used in all kinds of products. So is lead. As a supposedly intelligent race we sure are thick sometimes.

[Jim Morrison]

Here's a better question;

Do any of you guys ever point out the fact that practically anywhere they are in an urban environment they've been breathing asbestos fibers every day of their lives and will continue to do so until the day they leave the planet?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

While that's probably true, it's pretty danged far outside the scope of a home inspection. I think I get the point you're making, but if you're going to say something like that in a report, you might as well include a local crime rate and background radiation summary in there as well. Where does it end?

I am content with giving homebuyers a link to whatever the best and brightest at the EPA are saying at the moment when I see something that looks like asbestos. What more can a conscientious HI really do?

Jimmy