Cutler Hammer panel

[gtblum]

I had an electrician tell me that Cutler Hammer panel installation manuals state, double taps on the buss are A Ok as long as the wires are the same size. Anyone heard of this?

[Jim Port]

Are you asking about the grounded or grounding conductors?

Grounded conductors need to be one per hole.

Grounding conductors can be 2-3 per hole, depending on the size range. They should be the same size per hole.

[gtblum]

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[Jim Port]

As stated in my first post. One white per hole.

Bare or green grounding can typically share the same hole.

[gtblum]

I had an electrician tell me that Cutler Hammer panel installation manuals state, double taps on the buss are A Ok as long as the wires are the same size. Anyone heard of this?

Thanks for the response Jim. This is how I called it but, what about the question? Sorry about not posting the pic with the OP.

[Jim Port]

This was commonly done, but was incorrect. This was a listing and labeling violation. The label had to be read to know the correct method. This has now been spelled out in the NEC.

[Bill Kibbel]

I had an electrician tell me that Cutler Hammer panel installation manuals state, double taps on the buss are A Ok as long as the wires are the same size.

There might be something on the label on the inside of the cover that permits 2 conductors under 1 terminal. I'll check next time I see an Eaton CH panel.

I'm quite sure there will be something in the "manual" that states: "This product must be installed in accordance with the NEC". Therefore, the neutrals are excluded from being allowed to be doubled.

[gtblum]

This was commonly done, but was incorrect. This was a listing and labeling violation.

Cutler Hammer panel installation manuals stated, double taps on the bus were A Ok?

[Kyle Kubs]

I had an electrician tell me that Cutler Hammer panel installation manuals state, double taps on the buss are A Ok as long as the wires are the same size. Anyone heard of this?

Tell him to show it to you on their literature.

[Jim Katen]

I had an electrician tell me that Cutler Hammer panel installation manuals state, double taps on the buss are A Ok as long as the wires are the same size. Anyone heard of this?

Terminals that can be used with more than one conductor have to be "identified." (110.14(A)) In older editions of the NEC, such terminals had to be "approved for the purpose."

I don't believe that you can make such a blanket statement about all Cutler Hammer panels. *Some* Cutler Hammer panels might allow more than one conductor per terminal. If they do, it will be clearly spelled out on the panel label.

You have to read the labels carefully. Some allow two "grounding" conductors on the terminal or they allow two conductors on the "grounding" terminal. In both of those cases, they're not talking about the neutral (white)(grounded) wires.

There are some manufacturers who will, indeed, allow two grounded (neutral)(white) wires per lug.

Before you call this a problem, you've got to read the label.

Of course, if the area you're in has adopted the 2002 (or later) NEC, then the point is moot for anything installed since then.

Here are a couple of typical labels.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

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[gtblum]

Thank you.

This man was nothing less than a gentleman and did offer to share documentation. (If he could find it)

He did say, "some panels." My fault for not being clear on that.

[Erby]

I use these two links to explain the issues too my clients:

http://b4uclose.tripod.com/Reports/neut ... ionsqd.pdf

http://b4uclose.tripod.com/cockamamieph ... ed-up?i=14

They get it and so do "most" electricians.

The report language reads:

===

The problem(s) discovered in the main electric panel such as

• xxx

• more than one "grounded conductor" (neutral /white) wire per screw on the bus bar (double tapped/lugged) Each "grounded conductor" is supposed to have its very own screw on the bus bar. No other "grounded conductor" or "equipment grounding conductor" (bare copper wire) should be under the same screw with a "grounded conductor".

{Some electricians (who haven't done their homework) will tell you that it is OK to have more than one neutral (white) wire under a screw on the bus bar. They are wrong. It has long been required by manufacturer's instructions and Underwriters Laboratories Standard 67 for panelboards. See this link for a narrative description of the reason for single neutral wire - single screw. Double Lugged Neutral Narrative Also see this link for a visual interpretation. Double Lugged Neutrals Visual. Ensure the electrician is familiar with UL Standard 67 requirements

• xxx

• xxx

along with any other problems that an electrician may discover while performing repairs should be corrected. Have a qualified electrician repair as needed.

===

[gtblum]

Sent that pdf to the client yesterday after reading it to the electrician. As far as I'm concerned at this point, unless they can produce the documentation on this box proving his argument. The play stands as called.

[Jim Katen]

Sent that pdf to the client yesterday after reading it to the electrician. As far as I'm concerned at this point, unless they can produce the documentation on this box proving his argument. The play stands as called.

The issue is one of labeling. Either the equipment is labeled for two wires under each lug or it isn't. Your answer should be printed right there on the panel label.

I also think that Mr. Pauley's summary is misleading. You should know that he was the person who submitted the code change that prohibits double tapped neutrals beginning with the 2002 edition. The contents of that PDF is almost word-for-word the backup that he included in his code change submittal. He says, "The requirement has generally been enforced in the past by a close review

of the manufacturer markings and by NEC® 110.3(B)."

Note that he said "generally" enforced. 110.3(B) simply says that you have to install listed equipment in accordance with the instructions that came with it. Since some manufacturers allow two neutral conductors under a single lug on some panels, his statement is true, but misleading.

He also cites UL 67 and quotes, “An individual terminal shall be provided for the

connection of each branch-circuit neutral conductor.â€

[gtblum]

Finally had time to post this pic. I'll apologize now if it's too big.

Now that you can see it, what's the verdict? "wire holes are suitable for"

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[Jim Katen]

Finally had time to post this pic. I'll apologize now if it's too big. Now that you can see it, what's the verdict? "wire holes are suitable for"

It says this (underlining is mine):

When used as service equipment, any unused neutral holes may be used for equipment grounding. For equipment grounding applications, wire holes are suitable for (1) #14-4 or up to (3) #14-10 wires. Multiple wires in the same hole must be the same size and material.

This device accpets Cutler-Hammer type GBK ground bars. Wire holes are suitable for (1) #14-4 or up to (3) #14-10 wires. Multiple wires in the same hole must be the same size and material.

It's pretty clear to me that the provision for multiple wires in a single hole applies to equipment grounding conductors NOT to grounded (neutral) conductors.

Per 110.14(A) there should only be one neutral wire per lug in this particular panel. That might not be true of all Cutler Hammer panels.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[gtblum]

Thanks again Mr K.

This is why I consider my camera my 2nd most valuable tool.

[gtblum]

Must be he re-read the label. I was told tonight,the wiring had been corrected.