gfield Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 Hello, all: The photo below shows some bracing to a chimney I inspected yesterday, and I'm wondering if this is a common sight, or if it might indicate some underlying condition. "] Yes, I know there are other defects to the chimney. Nevertheless, I would find it educational to hear from all of you who might be willing to share what you see.
brric Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 Those are straps to hold the brackets for an antenna mast.
kurt Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 Yup. Antennae. What I see is an unlined chimney. Is it for combustion equipment (furnace, water heater), or a fireplace? Regardless, it needs a liner and I'd probably also slap a sheet metal crown on it.
gfield Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Posted October 20, 2014 Yes. I don't know why an antenna mast did not occur to me. The chimney serves only an oil furnace that appears to be original to the 1950 house.
Bill Kibbel Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 What I see is an unlined chimney. Is it for combustion equipment (furnace, water heater), or a fireplace? Regardless, it needs a liner and I'd probably also slap a sheet metal crown on it. Since when is terra cotta not a liner?
kurt Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 Since everything I read about chimneys indicates a liner is a good thing, and in most cases, necessary. Maybe it's not that way with oil. There is zero oil in Chicago. I have no idea. If you're burning wood or natural gas, there should be a liner in that puppy.
Bill Kibbel Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 Since everything I read about chimneys indicates a liner is a good thing, and in most cases, necessary. Maybe it's not that way with oil. There is zero oil in Chicago. I have no idea. If you're burning wood or natural gas, there should be a liner in that puppy. Liners are required for oil as well. That's not my question. The picture of the chimney in the OP clearly shows a terra cotta flue liner. You said it is an unlined chimney. Let me rephrase my question. Why is a terra cotta flue liner not a flue liner?
Scottpat Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 Terra cotta or clay tile liners are just fine for wood burners. They are still building them that way in my area, that is on high end homes that have masonry fireplaces!
Mike Lamb Posted October 20, 2014 Report Posted October 20, 2014 Kurt's talking about a new liner inside the old one. Old clay liners perform poorly with newer gas appliances around here causing drafting/condensate problems inside the chimney when the chimney is located at the outside wall of the house. Efflorescence and brick problems occur and the chimney falls apart. Most conscientious HVAC guys will install a new AL liner inside the old one. Things might different in Seattle where it's not so cold in winter. But I don't usually find that a chimney needs a new liner inside the old one if the chimney rises inside the house where it's warmer. This chimney looks interior so I don't call for a new liner inside the old one at least in the Chicago area.
gfield Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Posted October 20, 2014 Very enlightening to this newby. Thanks, gents!
Jim Baird Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 ...looks a lot like my single flue with its terra cotta liner, except mine has a metal cap to keep birds and critters from nesting therein. It serves my big old Grandma Bear Fisher wood stove.
John Dirks Jr Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 I dont know what it looks like inside but that chimney doesn't look all that bad. Slap a new crown on it and top it off with a cap. It's held up well for 64 years of exposure. It's about as good as most I see from that time frame around my way.
Bill Kibbel Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 Kurt's talking about a new liner inside the old one. Old clay liners perform poorly with newer gas appliances around here causing drafting/condensate problems inside the chimney when the chimney is located at the outside wall of the house. Efflorescence and brick problems occur and the chimney falls apart. Most conscientious HVAC guys will install a new AL liner inside the old one. Things might different in Seattle where it's not so cold in winter. But I don't usually find that a chimney needs a new liner inside the old one if the chimney rises inside the house where it's warmer. This chimney looks interior so I don't call for a new liner inside the old one at least in the Chicago area. That's RE-lining - not installing a liner in an "unlined chimney". Many chimneys around here with terra cotta liners are about due for relining, particularly when the oil or coal equipment has long since been converted to LP or NG. Oil heating equipment alone usually tears up TC liners at between 40- 55 years. TC liners seem to hold up quite well to wood, unless there's been a chimney fire.
John Kogel Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 I always or always try to get a shot down the chimney or up from the cleanout. It is common for the older chimneys here to be brick-lined with just one terra cotta flue liner at the crown. So then it is a brick-lined chimney and the mortar is invariably falling out.
gfield Posted October 21, 2014 Author Report Posted October 21, 2014 Thanks again, gents. I always learn something here.
kurt Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 Kurt's talking about a new liner inside the old one. Yeah. Really. Was it that hard to understand? Are we now having to delineate minutia and write technical spec's for ****ing liner on an internet forum? Exactly how far up my own ass would bill like me to go? Outside wall, absolutely. Interior wall, the good tech's are calling for it. Every time I've bothered to take the time to actually size an old tile liner, it's always "wrong". Most of the stuff I look at has a 90+ year old tile thingie it's shaling off, there's a small pile of thingie-ness in the cleanout....I tell people to put in a liner. Had a lot of Level II's lately. Every one of them said install a new liner. In the old liner. The clay one. The old one. Maybe wrong size. Usually it's cracked. So I thought a new liner would be good. In the old one. The clay one. That needs a new stainless steel one.
Bill Kibbel Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 Yeah. Really. Was it that hard to understand? Are we now having to delineate minutia and write technical spec's for ****ing liner on an internet forum? Yes, it was hard to understand that a lined chimney is unlined. Folks come here to learn from guys like you with decades of experience. You want them to identify a terra cotta lined chimney as "unlined"? Any home inspector could immediately loose all credibility making such a statement. Had a lot of Level II's lately. Every one of them said install a new liner.The same thing here. Whether it needs it or not, they sell them a reline. Every single time, no matter the size or condition of the flue. Sometimes the new liners installed in correctly sized and perfect condition flues are too small and the appliance or fireplace doesn't vent properly. They still walk away with their hands full of money.
Jim Katen Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 I'm not sure if Seattle's the same way, but in Portland, the piece of terra cotta that you see would probably be the only one in the chimney. It's very common around here to have an unlined chimney with a single piece of terra cotta at the top.
John Kogel Posted October 21, 2014 Report Posted October 21, 2014 I went back to look for a brick lining and found this collage of smoke stack pics. Click to Enlarge 95.45 KB Click to Enlarge 53.48 KB Click to Enlarge 63.49 KB Click to Enlarge 59.84 KB Click to Enlarge 106.74 KB Click to Enlarge 77.69 KB
mjr6550 Posted October 22, 2014 Report Posted October 22, 2014 I'm not sure if Seattle's the same way, but in Portland, the piece of terra cotta that you see would probably be the only one in the chimney. It's very common around here to have an unlined chimney with a single piece of terra cotta at the top. Pre-1900 or early 1900s we sometimes see the same thing here, but by the teens or 1920s virtually everything had a liner.
Jim Katen Posted October 22, 2014 Report Posted October 22, 2014 I'm not sure if Seattle's the same way, but in Portland, the piece of terra cotta that you see would probably be the only one in the chimney. It's very common around here to have an unlined chimney with a single piece of terra cotta at the top. Pre-1900 or early 1900s we sometimes see the same thing here, but by the teens or 1920s virtually everything had a liner. Interesting. Out here liners didn't become common until the 50s or 60s. I can't recall having ever seen one on a pre-war chimney.
Chad Fabry Posted October 22, 2014 Report Posted October 22, 2014 I'm not sure if Seattle's the same way, but in Portland, the piece of terra cotta that you see would probably be the only one in the chimney. It's very common around here to have an unlined chimney with a single piece of terra cotta at the top. Pre-1900 or early 1900s we sometimes see the same thing here, but by the teens or 1920s virtually everything had a liner. Interesting. Out here liners didn't become common until the 50s or 60s. I can't recall having ever seen one on a pre-war chimney. Terra cotta liners in almost every chimney after 1910 or so.
kurt Posted October 22, 2014 Report Posted October 22, 2014 Here, same as Portland. Didn't become standard until postwar. Single tile at the top was a chimney rebuild upgrade. I still find surprising numbers of unlined chimneys, even after new equipment installs.
Les Posted October 22, 2014 Report Posted October 22, 2014 My experience in Michigan is more varied. Unlined chimneys were pretty common until early 1950's. Intended fuel seems to be the determinant. Rectangle interior units were usually lined. Exterior units unlined. Simple stacked brick usually not lined. Metal liners are only common from late 1980's.
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