When Inspection Articles Make You Say, "What the?"

[Darren]

Enjoy

http://www.thestar.com/living/article/348068

[Chad Fabry]

... and once again I'm a little embarrassed to be a home inspector.

[Les]

the horse hair is a "new" one for me.

[Bain]

Wonder what purpose the arsenic would have served?

[Neal Lewis]

Aliminum wiring covered with a black fabric jacket?

[Les]

arsenic was used to dope horses just prior to sale to give them water retention qualities, glossy coat and a higher price at sale. It was retained in the hair. Also, some arsenic compounds were used to loosen the hair from hide after slaughter, but not common.

I am sooooooo proud to be a home inspekter!

[ozofprev]

Ok, let's be a little more specific. You are among the best inspectors around.

Given that arsenic was commonly found in horse hair (circa '30s), what specifically is wrong with the statements in the article? (Aside from the Kool-Aid that was obviously consumed.)

I'm not saying there are no issues - just that nobody has pointed them out.

arsenic

more arsenic

[Les]

Gary,

You are right.

The tone of the piece was obviously to frighten folks into getting an inspection. Kyriacon was interviewed and selectively quoted by the author/reporter. Of course the person wanted to write a good piece and layed it out in a way that would get attention.

Arsenic is a toxic substance and should not be taken lightly. But, home inspectors should not be speaking of things they know little or nothing about. (myself included) Inspectors are quick to become heros with help from the press. Would sawing horse hair plaster release any significant amount of arsenic into the air? What effect does the lime(and heat) in the plaster have on the organic hair and all of it's elements?

I thought the whole tone was a little alarmist as well as mostly incorrect.

For approx twenty years I worked on a basic list of methods and materials I believed inspectors should be aware of. I have let the project lapse because it became too much to be meaningful. I found it lost meaning when materials like Masonite siding started to split into LP material, HardiePlank, etc. All are unique so is it meaningful for an inspector to get nutty about all composition siding?

Kyriacou likely is a good inspector and a victim. Read INACHI's take of the piece. Go to Kyriacou's website and form your own personal opinion. I have mine.

[ozofprev]

Now that's conversational and more interesting. And those are good questions wrt chemical reactions and the real danger of horse-hair arsenic in and of itself.

I'll be the first to admit that horse-hair arsenic sounds preposterous at first blush, but it deserves intelligent discourse - not wholesale mockery which is so easy to do and way too common these days.

It may also be the case that the author of the piece - not the inspector - is the one who came up with black fabric sheathing as a sure sign of aluminum. The inspector may have mentioned that aluminum wiring often has the older fabric covering without meaning that ALL aluminum wiring has black fabric covering (which is clearly wrong.)

With the recent radon discussions we've had lately, not to mention mold, perhaps arsenic in older homes is more important. We don't really know. And like Les said, we shouldn't pretend we do.

[Les]

Arsenic in water is a very common water test we do in mid-Michigan. Arsenic is nasty stuff.

A little drift here - Gary brings up a very good idea/point. Real conversations are the very best way to address these issues. Lots of inspector instructors are not good at conversing via spoken word. Chad F is an exception. Many inspectors have a depth of knowledge that will astound us, yet find it quite difficult to "write". Inspecting is all about thinking. We get into trouble when we are not practiced nor good at writing those thoughts down.

My opinion: Inspectors must strive to know a little about alot and slowly develope a large data base. 'course it don't hurt if you are a good talker!

[Bain]

Thanks for the education vis a vis horses and arsenic, Les. Pretty impressive that you know that stuff.

[ozofprev]

Chad's a pompous ass.

But his blueberries are good!

[hausdok]

Hi,

I saw it when it came in via Google Alerts but I didn't use it. It feels like a puff piece aimed at consumers; not home inspectors. I bypass about 15 or 20 of those a week. I didn't run it because I thought he'd written it himself as a way to get his phone ringing. The tip-off is the writing style and that there aren't multiple sources for the story; only one inspector is quoted, and the 'inspector of the year thing is thrown in right after he's introduced into the piece. No reflection on the inspector; he might be the best inspector on the planet for all I know, but I usually look for stuff that will be of interest to inspectors that's not specifically aimed at consumers.

Naturally, if you're writing a fill piece for a reporter to use in order to get folks to call you, you don't want to put the name of other inspectors in the article. Lots of guys do that; they gin up a piece, send it to a reporter, and then the reporter re-writes some of it and slaps their own byline on it with the blessing of the inspector. There's nothing wrong with it; you'll see it done with pretty much every business out there. Want to make it look less like a puff piece? That's easy, just get together with another inspector to help you write an article and drop in quotes from both of you; you'll get fewer calls aimed at you, but you'll both benefit.

Heck, it was one of the marketing techniques I was taught by the franchise I used to be involved with; they even provided me with instructions for how to lay out an article, examples of puff piece articles, and tips for how to get the attention of reporters. I mostly didn't use it because I didn't think it had any real information in there of real benefit to inspectors and was concerned that it might perpetuate the spread of inspectorlore.

I have run puff pieces over the years when I thought they had information of value for inspectors but a few times I've just used them for filler material. I bet you'll be able to spot them if you try.

Bonnie, if you're reading this, that would be a good topic for your writing course; show these guys how to do a puff piece that doesn't look and feel like a puff piece.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[ghentjr]

I just wrote to her telling her about the poor quality of the information she used.

[Bill Kibbel]

The home inspector is quoted as saying "In older homes in the plaster they used horse hair to bond the plaster together and horse hair was treated with arsenic"

[:-jump] [:-banghea

It's complete bullshit. Anyone claiming to have even some general knowledge of old building practices knows it's bullshit. Most everyone (at least those that are capable of cognitive thought) that read about the possibility of arsenic in plaster for the first time in 2004 knew it was complete bullshit then.

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised that we have another home inspector perpetuating old-house folklore. Will there ever be a point in time that home inspectors will be required to back up their statements (that unsuspecting clients believe as facts from an expert) with credible sources?

[Les]

Bill,

Might be too early in the morning for me, but I am having difficulty with your last para. I think you are saying "too many inspection opinions and not enough facts".

[ozofprev]

Hi Bill,

Have to admit that I'm not sure if you are referring to the kool-aid inspector, me, or both. Anyway, I'm always open to new information. I see a lot of lath and plaster homes in Buffalo. I see many non-load-bearing walls covered with the stuff and I have read several articles on how to repair it. I appreciate its texture and its beauty - especially compared to gypsum. But arsenic in horse hair? It's all new to me. Rather than slam someone as incapable of cognitive thought (don't know what other kind there is), I like to be given references with facts. To me, that's what sites like this are for.

Although the third plaster layer did not normally include any animal hair, I know that the render layer and floating coats often did.

You are likely the one best qualified here to educate others on early building materials and practices. You are normally very helpful and not insulting. Was horse hair not one of the animal hairs used? If horse hair was used, then why was it different from 'other' horse hair that did contain arsenic? I truly don't know - and I think you must. What I gather at this point is that some arsenic might exist in old plaster but the amount is so small as to be insignificant except to those who are unreasonably phobic. I just like to know the facts.

[mthomas1]

All I'm gonna' say is: I've been interviewed several times for newspaper articles (none related to home inspection), and what's said often has little resemblance to what's printed.

[Les]

"Have to admit that I'm not sure if you are referring to the kool-aid inspector, me, or both. Anyway, I'm always open to new information."

Gary, I must confess that I felt the same way when I read Bill's post. I think we can agree the statement is misleading and not correct. I also know several of the inspectors on the board have been interviewed and some of us actually have spent thousands of hours being deposed, interviewed, hosted radio programs, etc.. Most of us know the end product (piece) does not reflect what was actually said.

A couple of years ago I learned about the huge differences between the regions of the country when it came to residential construction. I also have learned to respect the considered opinions of those craftspeople that have come before me. I was twenty-some years old before I trusted plywood and truely believed the use of gypsum board was cheap work.

I know you have "learned" a whole lot about arsenic before you posted, because that is what you and I do; take what we know, learn more, sort and sift and form our own opinions.

In short, if the reporter wrote about arsenic, then the reportee (like that word?) said somethinig about the perils of arsenic and horse hair.

In closing, and for John in particular, I have mixed plaster with a horse hair binder. Kermit Brink was the plasterer's name and I faintly remember adding cider vinegar to the water soak. In my mind that makes it fact. Oh ya, I also remember hanging around the horse slaughter house run/owned by Larry Lewis of Topper Dog Food fame and asking a million questions about where everything ended up. The hide went to a tannery where the hair was removed and sold for furniture use and plaster work. The rest of hide went into Wolverine Work Boots. in my mind that is factual.

[ozofprev]

You nailed it, Les.

[Chad Fabry]

Chad's a pompous ass.

But his blueberries are good!

I can live with that.

Gary made me think and then he made me research. I couldn't find any plasterers/pargeters that died from exposure to horse hair.

I also couldn't find any evidence that any one has been arsenic poisoned by horsehair while while performing restorations or remodeling.

All the world's information isn't on the internet, but a lot of it is.

[ozofprev]

Originally posted by Chad Fabry

Chad's a pompous ass.

But his blueberries are good!

I can live with that.

Gary made me think and then he made me research. I couldn't find any plasterers/pargeters that died from exposure to horse hair.

I also couldn't find any evidence that any one has been arsenic poisoned by horsehair while while performing restorations or remodeling.

All the world's information isn't on the internet, but a lot of it is.

I knew you'd get the WJ reference! (BTW, wrt blueberries - are you worried about a shortage of bees this year???)

So far as evidence - you won't find any that supports someone has died of radon in their home either. That's what's so annoying about all this stuff.

[hausdok]

Hi,

Not trying to throw any more wood on this fire, 'cuz I hate it when I see good friends getting riled at one another, but there's this.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Les]

Nice fire! Yes, I remember the case. I could have been retained.

Careful reading and good forensic sense would not always lead to "Arsenic and Old Lace"

Good piece and talk amongst yourselves while I wipe the egg off my face!

[hausdok]

Then there's this (Look at page 193), which, if someone wasn't careful to mentally record the fact that it occurred in Europe in the 1800's could fuel that kind of lore.

OT - OF!!!

M.