aluminum wire plugs/switches

[plummen]

denigrate patrons? thats funny because i recently got done reading 3-4 pages over in the hvac forum about a mis sized coil for a condensing unit where you guys called hvac contractors a bunch of idiots,or didnt you read that one? it was basically to the point where it said home inspectors were gods and and hvac guys are a bunch of idiots ! i guess that doesnt count huh?

Well, this is a home inspectors' site and the "patrons" are home inspectors, aren't they? Now, if I went and hung out on an HVAC forum and started dissing the patrons there, I'd probably be doing exactly what, oh, I dunno, YOU are doing, wouldn't I?

I know the thread you are referring to, can you tell me the specific post where a home inspector called himself or home inspectors Gods, or is that a little bit of theatrical embellishment made by you because you felt slighted by the tone that thread took?

I'll bet you I can go to any HVAC forum on the planet right now and find one or two posts where the HVAC guys are bitching about those damned home inspectors. Maybe I'd even find you participating in one or two of those discussions, and laying into those (sneer) so-called home inspectors. No?

You're still spending most of your time not bringing anything to the table here. We've got other trades that hang here regularly who are very helpful and want to help make our profession be better. They don't spend a lot of time trying to find fault here and they, like us, know there's a lot of room for improvement in their own profession, so they've adopted a thick hide when here and very graciously take it and return it by helping here and earning the respect of the brethren.

Do you think you're big enough of a man to do that, or is it more important for you to find fault here. I'm beginning to think that you might have recently been traumatized by something a home inspector wrote and hanging out here and sniping at inspectors is your way of getting payback. Is that why you are really here?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

im trying very hard to be helpfull here! maybe if you read some of the previous postings the members have made about contractors being a bunch of dumbasses instead of just ignoring them we might get someplace! im just trying to give some sugestions here is all,and no im not worried about some home inspector bully out here in the real world .the only inspectors that i need to worry about throughout my day are employed by the city and state of where ever im working at the time.the reason i came on here was to try and learn somethings that might help me or my customers in the future.instead all i seem to find is you guys cant handle anybody asking questions or having some actual real world experiance that you guys cant find in a book! its a 2 way street guys

[Bill Kibbel]

[im trying very hard to be helpfull here! ...the reason i came on here was to try and learn somethings that might help me or my customers in the future.

A majority of your posts have nothing to do with trying to be helpful or to learn things to help you or your customers. You know that.

instead all i seem to find is you guys cant handle anybody asking questions or having some actual real world experiance that you guys cant find in a book!

There's some really smart folks here that can handle questions just fine. We just look to credible sources for accurate answers, not unknown contractors' "experiance".

Have you ever read one of your posts after typing it?

[plummen]

http://hyetechutilities.com there ya go,your unknown contractor in business since 1996

[Jim Port]

Just a suggestion to Plummen. I was always taught to get your own house in order before critizing others. Yes, the game has a different set of rules for HIs vs contractors. Contractors have the codes to guide them and specify the minimum safety standards. HIs are free to recommend things they feel would improve the safety for the homeowner, regardless of a code requirement or not. You are not helping the image of responsible contractors with the attitude you are giving here.

As a licensed contractor you should be the one that knows how to handle a situation like adding GFI protection to AL branch circuits. How about adding a GFI breaker that is rated for use with AL instead of some old out of date and non-compliant method? You have been told several times in this topic that use of connectors that are not UL listed for AL is not correct, regardless of Noalox application. There is more to the Ideal connector besides the Noalox. The spring inside will also handle the greater expansion ratio of the AL and still retain a proper tension on the connection. But why worry about this when an uninformed inspector says that your method is fine?

No wonder customers wonder why my prices are higher when there is so-called competion like you out there taking shortcuts and installing non-compliant work. Hard to provide the same cost as someone using a $0.10 wire nut when a connector that cost several dollars is needed. BTW I hope your insurance company doesn't read your posts to see the kind of liability your methods are exposing them to.

[plummen]

You guys keep talking about my attitude meanwhile ive pointedout several posts where you guys have been calling contractors a bunch of idiots long before i ever arrived on the scene!

Maybe you need to read some of the things other people post on here before jumping on my post!

The biggest differance i see here is I have some real world experiance here that im trying to share ,which I have no doubt many of you also have spent time in the trades and have experiance as well while others just spend lots of time reading books and taking correspondence courses.

And by the way i have plenty of insurance to cover what me and my employees do,and as of yet ive never had to file a claim since 1996.

As long as your talking about my half ass ways of doing things ,what is your experiance in wiring houses and buildings? [^]

[Marc]

Gentlemen, Jim (plummen) is a new member. May I suggest that we be a little more tolerant of new members until they have a chance to 'acclimate'? Remember what a 'pain in the neck' I was 3 months ago?

It's difficult and takes a little while to get accustomed to it. Jim seems like a knowledgable plumber. He could make a contribution.

Marc

Just my opinion, is all.

[Jack Davenport]

First - There are a number of brands of Anti-oxididant compounds.

Pennatrox and noalox come to mind.

(I think " No-Lox" is an order that is placed when in a Bagel shop [] )

Second - just putting some noalox into a wire nut and pigtailing copper tails to the aluminum conductors is big time WRONG and passes on a False sense of security.

There was a time when the Purple wirenuts were the way to go, but not any more if you want to do it correctly.

The only recogonized method is a method called " Copalum" marketed by Tyco under the name of "Amp". The Copalum system can only be installed by licensed contractors ,certified by tyco. This can be an expensive system ,but how much is the home worth and what value would one place on their families safety ?

The consumer Product Safety Council ( cpsc) has stated that they only recognize the copalum system as the correct way to deal with aluminum wiring. They stated that the previously recommended use of purple wirnuts is an "inadquate solution".

This came from a statment released by the cpsc in 2003. Here is a link to a PDF published by the CPSC on Aluminum wiring repairs.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf

[hausdok]

Plummen,

You're still standing over the tables of other patrons who aren't listening to you and spraying spittle on them.

If you don't like the fact that the other guests in here criticize some in the trades, I suggest you go out the door, drive down the street and go to an establishment frequented by trades where you'll feel more comfortable.

You keep talking about your "experience" and seem to expect that folks here should accept your opinion as gospel, because you are in the trades, when you clearly haven't educated yourself on the proper methods to be used for resolving aluminum wiring issues.

Give it up, you aren't going to earn any props in here for standing there and trying to defend a jacklegged and dangerous way of cleaning up aluminum wiring. Even a newbie home inspector an hour out of a decent training program, without any experience in the trades, is still making a better call, by recommending correction with Copalum or Alumiconn connectors, than you are by stating that it's ok to smear anti-oxidation paste on dissimilar metals and then shove them into a wire nut that's not designed nor rated for connecting copper to aluminum wires, paste or not.

I'll put the link up again, this time not imbedded in text. Please go to that link and do some reading, so that you can educate yourself about what works and what doesn't work to fix aluminum wiring. Once you've finished reading about the research that shows that what you've done is dangerous, please go back to your customer's house and clean up that very dangerous pigtailing job that you did.

Here's the link: http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/AluReduceRisk.htm

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[plummen]

How many of you are familiar with this and how do you handle it?

I had a house a couple of weeks where the home inspector wrote up a house built in early-mid 70s for not having kitchen circuits gfi protected.I told the owner that they were existing plugs from when house was built but if he wanted them i would install them.Anyway when i opened up the boxes i found the old aluminum romex cable feeding the circuits so i put some nolox in the wire nuts i was using and pigtailed copper wire onto the existing wires to install the gfi's.

Normally id just use plugs made for aluminum wire but this wasnt possible for the gfi's.So my question is how do you guys handle aluminum wire and plugs/switches and how many of you check for this on your inspections? [:-magnify

Do any of you guys read what ive posted or do you guys all follow the dog in front of you where ever it goes? Do you not not words like how do you guys handle this situation? Does it say any place in my post that this is the only way to do it ?

Or how about the part where i say this is how i handle it and the city inspectors around here approve of it?I dont recall anyplace where ive said its my way or the highway,but I do seem to notice pretty much everybody posting on here that my way is wrong without giving many other options other than the crimp tool which i will appreciate and will investigate further! The whole reason behind this post was to see how you guys handle aluminum wiring and related wiringdevices on an inspection.

[Jack Davenport]

A couple quick comments for plummen -

Your a Plumbing company that holds an electrical contractors license.

Do you have a master electricians license also as reuired by the state or do you employ a master ?

You do realize that by doing an unrecognized or unapproved method on the aluminum wiring you have put your company & the master electrician at risk? As a "master" your responsibility is to know the corect and proper method to complete your installation / repair in a fashion that will not place your customer in harms way. If you are not sure about something it is your job as a "master" to find out the answers prior to proceeding.

To answer your question on experience - Yes I have the experience behind me to back up my comments. Yes I have completed aluminum wiring repairs. I have taken and passed ( the first time with a 90%) a state master electricians test.Matter of fact - I have 28 years of electrical experience to back me up.

Relax these guys are an ok bunch of folks, just stop and "listen" to what is being said- You made a mistake, go fix it. You will catch more flies with honey ...

[hausdok]

But your question was answered early on. Then when those answering opined that what you say you did in the OP to correct that house is wrong, you started touting your "experience" again.

Are you saying that a city building inspector, who may have never been an electrician or in the trades, just by virtue of his/her position is better informed? If so, you're in the wrong venue for that, because we routinely see poor calls made by municipal inspectors here and many of us have had to show municipal inspectors on multiple occasions why the calls they've been making are flawed.

If all you came away from that link with is the idea that a crimp tool is required, you clearly didn't bother to do any in-depth reading over there.

I'm through here. There's no point in responding anymore when it's obvious you aren't listening.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Inspectorjoe]

You guys keep talking about my attitude meanwhile ive pointedout several posts where you guys have been calling contractors a bunch of idiots long before i ever arrived on the scene!

Maybe you need to read some of the things other people post on here before jumping on my post!

The biggest differance i see here is I have some real world experiance here that im trying to share ,which I have no doubt many of you also have spent time in the trades and have experiance as well while others just spend lots of time reading books and taking correspondence courses.

And by the way i have plenty of insurance to cover what me and my employees do,and as of yet ive never had to file a claim since 1996.

As long as your talking about my half ass ways of doing things ,what is your experiance in wiring houses and buildings? [^]

I guess I'm one of the ones who spent "lots of time reading books and taking correspondence courses". My experiance (sic) in wiring a house doesn't go beyond adding some circuits to my own homes, but at least I know the difference between a plug and a receptacle. From your first, starting post in this thread:

"How many of you are familiar with this and how do you handle it?

I had a house a couple of weeks where the home inspector wrote up a house built in early-mid 70s for not having kitchen circuits gfi protected.I told the owner that they were existing plugs from when house was built but if he wanted them i would install them.Anyway when i opened up the boxes i found the old aluminum romex cable feeding the circuits so i put some nolox in the wire nuts i was using and pigtailed copper wire onto the existing wires to install the gfi's.

Normally id just use plugs made for aluminum wire but this wasnt possible for the gfi's.So my question is how do you guys handle aluminum wire and plugs/switches and how many of you check for this on your inspections? "

Just so you know, you're confusing plugs with receptacles. A plug is a male connector for insertion into an outlet. A receptacle is a contact device installed at an outlet for the connection of an attaching plug and flexible cord to supply portable equipment.

Ya know, spending time reading books isn't entirely wasteful - especially if it can keep one from appearing foolish. You should try it sometime.

[RobC]

I'm surprised we're recommending Noalox as an oxide inhibitor.

Click to Enlarge

24.2 KB

38. Other brands, including the one, NOALOX made by Ideal and used in their #65 connector, ignite readily and burn vigorously.

[plummen]

But your question was answered early on. Then when those answering opined that what you say you did in the OP to correct that house is wrong, you started touting your "experience" again.

Are you saying that a city building inspector, who may have never been an electrician or in the trades, just by virtue of his/her position is better informed? If so, you're in the wrong venue for that, because we routinely see poor calls made by muncipal inspectors here and many of us have had to show municipal inspectors on multiple occasions why the calls they've been making are flawed.

If all you came away from that link with is the idea that a crimp tool is required, you clearly didn't bother to do any in-depth reading over there.

I'm through here. There's no point in rsponding anymore when it's obvious you aren't listening.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

All inspectors in omaha ne on the mechanical side anyway electrical/hvac and plumbing have to hold a minimum of a journeymans license in the trade they are inspecting.

One of my employees who also holds an electricalcontractors license was the chief electrical inspector in bellevue ne for close to 10 years.

If people would quit fueling this fire on both sides id leave it alone also!

[Jim Port]

Admitting that one is wrong and has made mistakes is difficult. However, trying to justify the mistake by saying that is how i have done it for years, or the inspector passed it so it must be correct is lame. What's next, it works so it must be safe?

As a contractor you have an obligation to be knowledgeable in your trade and the Code. Your customers are paying you for this. To provide something less does a disservice to the trade, and a ripoff to the customer.

From your first post in this thread.

How many of you are familiar with this and how do you handle it?

So my question is how do you guys handle aluminum wire and plugs/switches and how many of you check for this on your inspections? [:-magnify

You should know that the HI should be making a report based on the observations during the inspection. Are you asking the HI to decide on the correct method of remediation?

[Jim Katen]

. . . There was a time when the Purple wirenuts were the way to go, but not any more if you want to do it correctly.

The only recogonized method is a method called " Copalum" marketed by Tyco under the name of "Amp". The Copalum system can only be installed by licensed contractors ,certified by tyco. This can be an expensive system ,but how much is the home worth and what value would one place on their families safety ?

Hi Jack. I think that the Copalum system has been on its way out for several years now. There are very few certified installers anymore and, since the invention of the Alumiconns, the Copalum is just cumbersome and outdated. I was never really a fan because, during the crimping process it's way too easy to damage the aluminum conductors. Check out the Alumiconn connectors, they're really very slick.

The consumer Product Safety Council ( cpsc) has stated that they only recognize the copalum system as the correct way to deal with aluminum wiring. They stated that the previously recommended use of purple wirnuts is an "inadquate solution".

This came from a statment released by the cpsc in 2003. Here is a link to a PDF published by the CPSC on Aluminum wiring repairs.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf

Yeah, but that's, quite frankly, a load of bull on their part. The Ideal 65s are listed by UL for the purpose and the CPSC really doesn't have enough data to condemn them. That statement also dates from a time before the Alumiconns came on the scene. Another consideration is that, in many retrofit installations, there simply isn't enough room to use a Copalum or an Alumiconn and the Ideal 65's are the only practical solution.

Personally, I wouldn't criticize any UL listed method as long as it was properly installed.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

. . . All inspectors in omaha ne on the mechanical side anyway electrical/hvac and plumbing have to hold a minimum of a journeymans license in the trade they are inspecting.

One of my employees who also holds an electricalcontractors license was the chief electrical inspector in bellevue ne for close to 10 years.

If people would quit fueling this fire on both sides id leave it alone also!

Your question was answered on the first page of this thread. You've been given good solid answers to the questions you've posed. If people insist on continuing to bicker and snipe, I will lock the thread.

Keep the discussion on topic and refrain from personal attacks, everyone.

- Jim Katen, Electrical Forum Moderator