In-Depth Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 This laundry tub drain doesn't look right to me, would this be considered an S-trap? A vented S-trap? Please enlighten me! Thanks, Jim Click to Enlarge 33.88 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Where's that branch go? It looks like a vent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-Depth Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Where's that branch go? It looks like a vent. Yes, it is a vent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 From the 06' IRC P3105.2 Fixture drains. The total fall in a fixture drain resultingfrom pipe slope shall not exceed one pipe diameter, nor shall the vent pipe connection to a fixture drain, except for water closets, be below the weir of the trap. What is shown in the OP's photo is a vent connection that's below the trap weir. This is permitted only on toilet fixtures which is necessary since the trap is integral to the toilet fixture. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 So it's not allowed by code, but what exactly is going to go wrong with it? I can imagine it gurgling a bit and the vent will flood in a back-up, but so will any other vent connection. The intent of that cite can't possibly be to prevent a noise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 So it's not allowed by code, but what exactly is going to go wrong with it? I can imagine it gurgling a bit and the vent will flood in a back-up, but so will any other vent connection. The intent of that cite can't possibly be to prevent a noise? Properly vented fixtures don't gurgle. It might work fine but I'd be concerned that suction developed at the weir might pull the trap dry, especially if drain action starts with a lot of water sitting in the basin. Venting relieves that suction. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Siphon is the commonly cited 'problem' with S traps but in practice it rarely happens. If all three of those basins were filled and then drained simultaneously, there would be a large slug of water on that line initially, likely recurring a couple times as they emptied, but not at the end of the cycle when it could siphon. It's even less likely since it's vented, wrong side of the weir or not. I guess I want the 'this bad thing will happen if you don't follow the code' reasoning behind the cite, 'because I said so' was never a good enough reason in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 The vent doesn't do anything if it's on the wrong side of the trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 It's not on the wrong side of the trap, is it? Vents should be "downstream" from the trap, but not lower than the weir. I can imagine some hypotheticals, but pretty far fetched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 It's on the wrong side of the weir. I can imagine why that's bad design but not why it's bad building practice. The code is not a design manual so I was after why that was the latter. Apparently no one knows. A basin with an occasional belch doesn't bother me all that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Tom, take a look at the OP photo: the vent connects on the discharge side of the trap. It's not on the wrong side, just too low. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 My old plumbing design books show vented s-traps were standard for quite some time. This illustration is from a 1910 publication. Click to Enlarge 59.01 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allseason Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Did it drain well or did it gurgle and make noise? And that is all new pvc so would not the s-trap be something to call out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-Depth Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Did it drain well or did it gurgle and make noise? And that is all new pvc so would not the s-trap be something to call out? Thanks for the input everybody. The laundry tubs drained well, and there was no gurgling or unusual noises. The clothes washer drain was on the other side of the room, so there was not a large volume of water going through this drain regularly. I wrote it up as the vent was improperly located below the weir of the trap per Marc's reference, may need correction if it causes problems with the drainage. This was permitted work, so the city inspector passed it, or more likely, didn't look at it. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Tom, take a look at the OP photo: the vent connects on the discharge side of the trap. It's not on the wrong side, just too low. Marc Yeah, my bad choice of words added to the confusion. It's too low. God forbid I read all the responses before I post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 The thing in the picture is not an S trap. S traps are a type of manufactured fitting. They no longer comply with the codes, but they're real fittings. The thing in the picture is an improvised mess. Because of this, no one knows how it will behave or what it will do. Unconventional things behave in unconventional ways. That mess is analogous to a pier made up of Jenga blocks or a maze of electrical wiring with open splices. Sure, it works in the sense that most of the water eventually goes where we want it to go, but that's about it. Maybe it will never burp or suck its trap dry, or maybe it'll only do it sometimes. But why should we or our clients tolerate that when the knowledge and ability to do it right is out there and within easy reach? Modern plumbing has pretty much conquered typhoid, cholera, & dysentery, why take a step backwards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baird Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 hmmm. My thinking was an "s" trap is made by a trap arm that is too short...that trap arm was supposed to be twice diameter in length? My check of '06 IRC and IPC does not back up my thinking tho. Seems like I remember it clearly from old '98 CABO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 In my 'hood, that would be widely recognized as an S trap, even by the local 130 fellows. I'm not sure the definition is as hard lined as Katen implies, but I'm willing to call it whatever anyone wants. It does imply that the installer worked harder than necessary to get it wrong. Although, if you look it over, how would one get the vent in the tailpiece area without pushing the weir down to the floor? I don't think the elevations would allow getting all the fittings in place. They could'a just ran the trap arm over to the side of the tub, gone vertical with the vent, then brought it all back over to the drain hub, thereby keeping the vent above the weir, but it would've looked even loopier than this job. Since they were apparently unwilling to get rid of the old "stone" laundry tub (and who wouldn't be?), they did what's going to work OK. I'd probably report it simply so my folks didn't hear it from someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plummen Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 S-trap,it should be against the law to sell that nasty purple primer to home owners or handymen! [:-censore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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