9red9 Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hello, I just had a new roof installed (architectural shingle). Should I expect to see the nails coming through the roof on the front porch? For example if I step out my front door and look up there are 15-20 nails coming through the underside of the A frame roof that overhangs the porch. I'm not so much worried about leaks as it's an outdoor porch exposed to the elements anyway, it just looks lousy. I'll have to climb up and trim the nails as well as repaint since the nails took some of the wood with them when they punched through. Is this common or just sloppy work on the part of the roofer? Thanks, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allseason Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Can you post some pictures? If you are looking up and seeing the roof decking (sheathing) and rafters only, the only thing between you and the shingles, then you would expect to see roofing nails as they need to completely penetrate the decking. It could also be where they missed the rafters while nailing a new deck (sheathing) on the roof if the nails are close to the rafters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Is this common or just sloppy work on the part of the roofer?Thanks, Yes. The roofer should have hand nailed the area over the porch with 3/4" nails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Is this common or just sloppy work on the part of the roofer?Thanks, Yes. The roofer should have hand nailed the area over the porch with 3/4" nails. That would have been a nice detail, but it's not a requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 .............requirement or no requirement, it is a poor workmanship. Application of shingles should not require additional painting nor barriers to prevent accidental punctures of body parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9red9 Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 allseason Thanks for the reply, unfortunately I just noticed the issue this morning on the way out. Job was finished yesterday but was it dark when I got home. I'll may post pics when I get home. The underside of the roof are 1x4's, painted. Not sure if there is another layer between the 1x4s and the shingle until I get up there and take a look Chad and Jim, Thanks for the info guys, I agree 3/4" would have been the better way to go, but I guess not the cost effective one on their part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9red9 Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 .............requirement or no requirement, it is a poor workmanship. Application of shingles should not require additional painting nor barriers to prevent accidental punctures of body parts. Couldn't agree with you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allseason Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 If it makes any difference keep in mind that it's 15 - 20 nails out of how many that were applied. It could be that he had a few longer nails in his pouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Whitmore Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 If it's 15 or 20 nails only, and they are close to rafters, perhaps the roofer tried to nail down loose decking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lamb Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 A competent, seasoned roofer would have known better. Expect less when you pay for less. That's my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allseason Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 If it's 15 or 20 nails only, and they are close to rafters, perhaps the roofer tried to nail down loose decking? That's what I had also mentioned. Also, a 3/4 inch roofing nail going through a dimensional shingle likely won't have enough bite in the decking to ensure a solid connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Corrigan Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 With 1/2" sheathing the nail is required to penetrate through the sheathing. With a 1X4 (3/4" thick), the nail is required to penetrate to the lower surface. See the ICode section below. A 3/4" roof nail won't be long enough to meet the IRC requirement and probably the shingle manufacturers requirement. I'd take the nails sticking out any day. R905.2.5 Fasteners. Fasteners for asphalt shingles shall be galvanized steel, stainless steel, aluminum or copper roofing nails, minimum 12 gage [0.105 inch (2.67 mm)] shank with a minimum 3/8?inch (9.5 mm) diameter head, ASTM F 1667, of a length to penetrate through the roofing materials and a minimum of ? inch (19.1 mm) into the roof sheathing. Where the roof sheathing is less than ? inch (19.1 mm) thick, the fasteners shall penetrate through the sheathing. Fasteners shall comply with ASTM F 1667. Tom Corrigan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 For me, where this goes is to the contractor clarifying expectations and work procedures. They should have told you nails would be sticking out; they're supposed to stick out. They should have offered alternatives if you didn't want nails; there are alternatives that would cost a little more. There's no good answer; he didn't do the roof "wrong", but he didn't do it right because the customer isn't happy. For, now, get a good pair of Klein end nippers. Trim off the nails. It's all you can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 With 1/2" sheathing the nail is required to penetrate through the sheathing. With a 1X4 (3/4" thick), the nail is required to penetrate to the lower surface. See the ICode section below. A 3/4" roof nail won't be long enough to meet the IRC requirement and probably the shingle manufacturers requirement. I'd take the nails sticking out any day. R905.2.5 Fasteners. Fasteners for asphalt shingles shall be galvanized steel, stainless steel, aluminum or copper roofing nails, minimum 12 gage [0.105 inch (2.67 mm)] shank with a minimum 3/8?inch (9.5 mm) diameter head, ASTM F 1667, of a length to penetrate through the roofing materials and a minimum of ? inch (19.1 mm) into the roof sheathing. Where the roof sheathing is less than ? inch (19.1 mm) thick, the fasteners shall penetrate through the sheathing. Fasteners shall comply with ASTM F 1667. Tom Corrigan Tom, I love you but 19 mm is 3/4 of an inch and 5/8 of an inch of shingle nail (16mm) in 1x sheathing is going to hold a shingle just as good as as a fastener driven through 7/16 (11mm) osb.For the record, this is the very first time I disagree with you. I realize my position is indefensible and that you'd be on the winning team in court, but in real life the shingle will tear out long before the nail gives up its obsession with yellow pine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 We have mondo deep overhangs here and nails protruding from the bottom are pretty much taken for granted. I agree with Chad; they probably won't pull out, but I'd go easy about making accusations or disparaging comments that can't be backed up. If you don't like 'em, have a false underside installed about an inch below the actual deck. It'll take some furring strips and you'll need to rip some material but it won't be that hard or expensive. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 At least one manufacturer, Certainteed, allows you to use short nails at overhangs where long nails would be unsightly. It's printed right there in their Master Shingle Applicator's Manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 At least one manufacturer, Certainteed, allows you to use short nails at overhangs where long nails would be unsightly. It's printed right there in their Master Shingle Applicator's Manual. Yeah, that's true; except he's in Massachusetts and the way it's phrased in the manual it looks like Certainteed only allows that exception in the northwest and southwest states of ID, OR, WA, NM, WY, CA, AK, HI, UT, AZ and CO. Immediately after that paragraph the manual goes on to say in a new paragraph that they will allow the limited warranty to remain in force if the shingles have been fastened to an acceptable deck with appropriate roofing nails, even if they do not penetrate to the full depth specified in the instructions, if the following conditions are met: - Two extra nails per full shingle are used (staples are prohibited) and they penetrate into the roof deck at least 5/8" and seat firmly against the single. - Nail placement is in accordance with steep slope requirements in the manual. It goes on to state that the exception only applies to those areas of the roof that span an open overhanging soffit. The way it's written is confusing. I think one could read it and expect that one may use the regular number of shorter nails in the northwest and southwest states listed but extra nails would be needed in all other states - or - one can interpret it to mean that it is only allowed in the northwest and southwest states as long as two extra nails are used per shingle. I bet that manual was edited by a shingle guy and not someone who is a professional writer. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Details, details. Do you really think that it's going to be ok in Alaska but not in Massachusetts? I'll bet you a dollar that the regional requirements are there to satisfy the lawyers, not the shingles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Details, details. Do you really think that it's going to be ok in Alaska but not in Massachusetts? I'll bet you a dollar that the regional requirements are there to satisfy the lawyers, not the shingles. Not disagreeing, just sayin'. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was lawyers who crafted those couple of confusing paragraphs just to make it all that harder for someone to come back on Certainteed. The IKO shingle instructions state unequivocally that one must use a drip edge flashing. I used to write the covers up when I knew they were IKO shingles and there wasn't any drip edging. One day I'm rolling down the interstate and I got a call from an engineer at IKO; he wanted to tell me that I shouldn't have been writing up roofs with their shingles for not having a drip edge because they didn't actually require drip edging. I asked him something like, "Well, if they aren't required than why are your instructions written in the imperative and leave no doubt in the mind of the reader that a drip edge flashing must be used?" He said that he'd written that and that he could have phrased it better. I said he should re-write the instructions and he responded that their lawyers wanted them exactly the way they are. I probably should have continued to write them up as missing required components; if I had, the bitching from builders might have gotten them to re-write them. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghentjr Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Not disagreeing, just sayin'. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was lawyers who crafted those couple of confusing paragraphs I agree. Try reading our Income Tax Code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Not disagreeing, just sayin'. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was lawyers who crafted those couple of confusing paragraphs I agree. Try reading our Income Tax Code. You have a Tax Code? I thought it was code of the West down your way. The guys with the biggest guns call the shots. [] Re: the nail ends - If you asked the roofer not to ruin the underside of your roof deck, call him back. Otherwise, I would use a little grinder tool to nick the nails and then snap them off flush with a pair of big pliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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