Oh Lordy

[ozofprev]

I agree, Kurt. The only reason I wrote that science strives to be 100% objective is because of human biases in reporting research. Now, if you consider the fact that the research can be repeated, and therefore remove any subjectivity, then yes science approaches 100%. Unfortunately, some studies are too expensive or resources too scarce to repeat.

Without the human element, then yes science is purely objective.

[Brian G]

I also feel science is objective, though some try to use it to support predetermined arguements. In the end those people usually wind up discredited, unless they happen to be right and can produce the evidence to back it up.

A law like this is chaos in the making. Aside from undermining centuries of serious scientific pursuit, it simply cannot hope function in a society that includes hundreds, if not thousands, of religions. It would mean allowing "alternative" answers from even the farthest fringe cults, no matter how bizzare or ignorant they were. We could reach a point where no answer could be called simply "wrong".

And if this is allowed in science classes, how long would it be before it spread to other classes (like history)?

How about bringing that idea right on up the ladder into the working world? Why do things the way your employers want, if your beliefs call for an "alternative" method?

The main target here is, of course, evolution. The sponsors of this bill want creationism to be legitimized, if not taught, by the schools. Creationism, right or wrong, is not science; it's religion. Teach science in school, and religion at home. In the end the kid is going to make up his or her own mind anyway, once grown and out of the house.

Here are my observations on theories, in a nut shell. I'm not spitting, this is what I've seen happen.

If the evidence doesn't support the theory, science rejects the theory.

If the evidence doesn't support the theory, religion rejects the evidence.

Brian G.

Got a Test Today? Better Know Your Alternative Answers! [:-boggled

[Michael Brown]

What about Neocatastrophism!

Freedom of Speech - American Hip Dictionary

(frç'd#601;m) (spçch) Pronunciation Key

Freedom of Speech:

1. I'm right

2. You're wrong

3. Get over it!

Michael [:-tong2]

[ozofprev]

First, Mike I just want to say that your avatar is perfect. The kid looks just like he is exclaiming, "What about Neocatastrophism!"

Although he looks a bit young to discuss geomorphology and the relative merits of uniformitarianism and neocatastrophism (and what was the other theory - ergodic???). At his age, he would have to go with neocatastrophism!

[John Dirks Jr]

Would anyone agree that many educational institutes have curriculum that is motivated by a certain ideology?

I am a huge fan of science. True science should be proven fact. When you discuss theory, you're in a grey area.

I believe that in some cases our educational institutes are misleading students. Unless you drink their kool aid, they look upon you with condescension. This happens and it should be stopped.

[ozofprev]

Originally posted by AHI

Would anyone agree that many educational institutes have curriculum that is motivated by a certain ideology?

Sure. There are many parochial schools.id="blue">

I am a huge fan of science. True science should be proven fact. When you discuss theory, you're in a grey area.

Not so grey, really. Science texts always provide a very precise definition of the term, theory.id="blue">

I believe that in some cases our educational institutes are misleading students. Unless you drink their kool aid, they look upon you with condescension. This happens and it should be stopped.

That sounds like Ben Stein. I haven't seen Expelled yet. Can you give a rational example of the Kool-Aid you are referring to? (Poor Kool-Aid - Jones didn't actually use that brand.)id="blue">

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by AHI

Would anyone agree that many educational institutes have curriculum that is motivated by a certain ideology?

I am a huge fan of science. True science should be proven fact. When you discuss theory, you're in a grey area.

All science is theory. That's the whole friggin point of science. If data appears that contridicts the theory, the theory has to be changed to accommodate the new data. Nothing in science is considered final. The stuff that we teach should be the current accepted theories based on the data that we have to date. Any scientific theory can change tomorrow if new data emerges. The most important thing to teach is the scientific process.

Religion doesn't have theories. It has beliefs that are based on faith. The whole point point of faith is that you don't need data to back it up. You just believe it. If you needed proof to believe in a religious tenet, there'd be no point in having faith.

I believe that in some cases our educational institutes are misleading students.

That statement is too vague to have any meaning. How exactly are educational institutions misleading students?

Unless you drink their kool aid, they look upon you with condescension.

As for condescention, religious zealots are the world champions at that.

This happens and it should be stopped.

What, exactly, should be stopped and who should stop it?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[John Dirks Jr]

To be honest with you all, I bit off more than I can chew here. If there is anyone who is a middle of the road nobody, it's me.

My train of thought is not that hard to follow or understand. To agree or not is subjective to ones own opinion.

[ozofprev]

Middle of the road nobody? I don't see you as a nobody. You seem like a good guy who is learning and making an honest living. That's as good as anyone gets.

[John Dirks Jr]

Thanks Gary. What I mean by "nobody" is my opinions, for the most part, don't lean heavily one way or the other.

Many things will never be explained and the world as we know it will never be a perfect place. Sometimes being informed just sucks you know. What do they say, ignorance is bliss?

[Brian G]

Originally posted by AHI

Sometimes being informed just sucks you know. What do they say, ignorance is bliss?

There's an old saying that the difference between an optimist and a pessimist is that the pessimist is usually better informed. [8] []

Brian G.

Nobody Said It Was Easy [:-crazy]

[ozofprev]

What do they say, ignorance is bliss?

Well, Ed Bliss probably doesn't say that.[]

Actually, it is absolutely amazing how much we do know. Sure, it's all theory but these theories have given us fantastic gifts (and curses). I see nothing but beauty in science. The 3-volume set of Feynman's lectures on physics is my sick idea of some fun reading. He had such a cool way of presenting simply, many complex topics.

How we choose to use the results of science is not always wise, but we can't blame science for that. I find more truth in mathematics than in any other language.

[John Dirks Jr]

Speaking of wise;

....some are wise, some are otherwise....

[Brandon Chew]

The 3-volume set of Feynman's lectures on physics is my sick idea of some fun reading. He had such a cool way of presenting simply, many complex topics.

If you haven't done so yet, pick up a copy of Genius by James Gleick. It's a great read about the life & times of Richard Feynman and the guys he hung out with. He took great pride in his ability to explain complex subjects in a way that was easy for others to grasp. He often said that if a person was unable to do this, then that person really did not fully understand what they were talking about.

[ozofprev]

Thanks Brandon. I read Feynman's own biography, "What Do You Care..." but I have heard that "Genius" is very good and a different sort of read. Now that you've recommended it, I'll have to get it. The guy was so full of life and craziness. His Challenger moment was revealing on so many levels. Anybody who does his best work in topless bars is guaranteed to entertain!

"Experiment is the sole judge of scientific truth." R.F.

[ozofprev]

The house floor passed the bill 75-21. That's a shame, but all's well that ends well.

Good News

[exploreparadise2]

It's good news that the OK senate is quashing the bill, but how did it pass with such a large majority in the house?

I'm impressed that everyone is trying really hard to be polite in this thread. As others have promised, I will keep my own strident thoughts about religion to myself. I don't want to upset the civility applecart.

Perhaps the forum moderator should allow regular discussions on religion and politics, but ban any talk on inspector organizations.

Secularly and humanistically yours,

Blair Pruitt

Home Inspections in Seattle

[Brian G]

Classic political slight-of-hand. It passed, and all who "needed" to be seen voting for it were, but it promptly went off to die quietly in a committee that won't even hear it. It's dead for now, but odds are it ain't over.

Did you notice the religious groups that voiced opposition to the bill? All believers aren't zealots.

Brian G.

Until The Next Time.... [:-wiltel]

[Brian G]

Originally posted by exploreparadise2

Perhaps the forum moderator should allow regular discussions on religion and politics, but ban any talk on inspector organizations.

[][:-dev3][:-bouncy][:-dopey][}][:-hspin][:-slaphap

Brian G.

Love It [:-love]

[ozofprev]

Brian, you're right - it's generally an annual thing. I was impressed by the religious backing in that list as well - it's a good thing.

Blair, I live in Amherst, NY. It's the home of CFI.