Mike Lamb Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 This chimney leans out about 1/2" on a 4' level. Not as bad as the photo suggests but still noticeable. The inside wall had the same lean with some minor drywall cracks. I think the wall was built with a lean. 1964. Adjacent areas did not look stressed out. Anyway, I recommended that a qualified framing carpenter take a look and give an opinion. Would a structural engineer been more appropriate? Click to View 45.14 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 NIMO. But, what's a carpenter going to say? Neither "expert" can tell anything without tearing it open, can they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 I'm curious about the rest of the house. Is the wall at the other end of the home leaning too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Originally posted by Mike Lamb This chimney leans out about 1/2" on a 4' level. Not as bad as the photo suggests but still noticeable. The inside wall had the same lean with some minor drywall cracks. I think the wall was built with a lean. 1964. Adjacent areas did not look stressed out. Anyway, I recommended that a qualified framing carpenter take a look and give an opinion. Would a structural engineer been more appropriate? I can't explain what's happening from just looking at the photo, but I'll bet you a fistful of dollars that it wasn't built with a lean. - Jim Katen, Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 What type of house? Looks like a ranch or possibly a split. Is it possible the rafter ties came loose and the walls pushed out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 It looks like the type of chase one sees cobbled on around stovepipes when wood or gas stoves are added to a home and they need to run the vent up the outside of the structure versus straight up through the house. If that's the case, I suspect that whoever cobbled on the chase, whether the homeowner or the guy putting in the stove, was probably not the best "carpenter" in the world. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dirks Jr Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 If there's a question in your mind about the structure in this case, what do you have to lose by recommending the structural specialist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lamb Posted January 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 It is a ranch. I thought maybe the chimney chase was built crooked but the inside wall matched up out of plumb. The rest of the house framing looked OK. Getting to that side of the attic was critical but there was about 12" of new celulose blown in so I had to look from the hatch which didn't tell me anything. My gut tells me this is no big deal but leaning walls need some explaining and I just couldn't tell if this is going to be a future problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Originally posted by Mike Lamb Getting to that side of the attic was critical but there was about 12" of new celulose blown in so I had to look from the hatch which didn't tell me anything. So, what you do is climb up in there and go on your hands and knees over to that area to look things over. Then when you back out you just fluff the stuff back up behind you. It takes almost no extra time; just a little more effort to get off the ladder and make your way over there and back. Maybe the framing crew had a few too many at lunch that day before they raised those walls and the guy working the level or the guy nailing home the temporary brace was a little off his game. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lamb Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Originally posted by hausdok Originally posted by Mike Lamb Getting to that side of the attic was critical but there was about 12" of new celulose blown in so I had to look from the hatch which didn't tell me anything. So, what you do is climb up in there and go on your hands and knees over to that area to look things over. Then when you back out you just fluff the stuff back up behind you. It takes almost no extra time; just a little more effort to get off the ladder and make your way over there and back. Maybe the framing crew had a few too many at lunch that day before they raised those walls and the guy working the level or the guy nailing home the temporary brace was a little off his game. ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!! Mike So, what you do is climb up in there and go on your hands and kneesâ⬦ Thanks for the crawling instructions, Mike. It takes almost no extra timeâ⬦ Just a little more effortâ⬦ Then when you back out you just fluff the stuff back up behind youâ⬦ Um, right. I think you are right that the framing crew may have been drunk. Click to View 82.06 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I'm still tryin' to wrap my head around the idea of crawling down through insulation, and then as I back out, "fluff the stuff up behind you"............ Oh Lordy. Honestly, the likelihood of older growth wood framed chimney chase doing much of anything other than sitting right there after 40 years is highly unlikely. It seems like you could figure out if it's moved, or been repaired, or whatever. And, what carpenter hasn't been drunk? [:-angel] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energy star Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 The mold problem is also something that should be looked at. The roof rafters are covered in mold. (By collar ties) On that end of the home, is the space wide open? Like the living room and dining room are open to each other. with no shear walls or walls perpendicular to that outside wall that the chimney is on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal Lewis Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I would just walk over to that end of tha attic. Crawling on the joists on the knees. Ouch. It looks like leftover concrete on the rafters. I'm not seeing mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lamb Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Originally posted by energy star The mold problem is also something that should be looked at. The roof rafters are covered in mold. (By collar ties) On that end of the home, is the space wide open? Like the living room and dining room are open to each other. with no shear walls or walls perpendicular to that outside wall that the chimney is on? There was no mold. "On that end of the home, is the space wide open? Like the living room and dining room are open to each other. with no shear walls or walls perpendicular to that outside wall that the chimney is on?" Yes. Exactly. What's your theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hausdok Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Click to View 82.06 KBHell, That one's a piece of cake. Compared to snaking one's way through a bunch of fink or queen post trusses under a 3:12 roof, that's a sweetheart. Hell, you don't even have to crawl; just stoop and walk. Energy Star - What mold? OT - OF!!! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emalernee Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Maybe the end wall was never tied into the ceiling joists or roof rafters and the 40 years of wind on the sail of a chimney pushed the wall out a total of no more then the 2 inches you found. The siding may be newer and covering up the separation of the chimney at the roof rake. Newer shingles and flashing would also hide the movement. Carpenters around here ussually don't start drinking until after the afternoon coffee break, when the boss has gone for the day. Ezra Malernee Canton, Ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Moore Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Here...I've turned the lights on. Click to View 50.96 KB I see dust reflected by the flash...but mold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kibbel Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 It looks like no real lateral restraint at gable end wall of a bi-level. It's rather common. If not sheathed with boards or plywood, I can get some to move with a moderate shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Here's something I picked up at a seminar this year. Are the ceiling joists connected into the side of a beam that runs along the center? If so, the joists may have pulled apart if they weren't tied together. The engineer who gave the seminar stated when joists are tied into the side of a beam, look for plywood or some other sort of connection from one side of the beam to the other that will hold the joists from moving due to the load of the rafters on the exterior walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Corrigan Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Looks to me like the attic floor joists stop at the building sidewall and the rafters continue on. See the short knee wall. Some of the joists need to continue outward and connect to the rafter bases to resist spread. Tom Corrigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I would think part of my analysis of the chimney chase and wall lean issue would be a complete inventory of rafter cross ties (ceiling joists), bracing, strongbacks, lateral ties, or whatever else I could find that would tell me the house was tied together satisfactorily. I've seen a couple houses where the rafters ran across the width of the house and the ceiling joists ran lengthwise down the house. Or, just about any other oddball combination, or total lack of, bracing and reinforcement members. I didn't mean to sound casual about the chimney chase. Of course, it's holistic, and one needs to look for all the things we should be looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energy star Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Richard it looks like mold is on the roof rafters. Explode the view and you will see. Back to the wall. It was probably built like that and over time bowed out. It did this because they used pre-cuts or 8' 2 x 4's to frame the house. When they got to the gable end rather than using longer 2x4's to frame out the wall, which i would do with the proper fire stops, say 12 or 16 footers, they just used the 2x4's and a top plate on top of the pre-cuts, then they used shorter 2x4's to reach the roof. the top plate on top of the pre-cuts is the weak point (almost like a hinge) This could be avoided by installing strong-backs or strong boards on top of the ceiling joists perpendicular to the end of the home. The boards would be nailed to the top of the ceiling joists and to the gable wall close to the top plate. This will keep the wall from moving in or out as this one did. Back then things were different as far as code goes, you can tell because I think a home built now needs more collar ties installed. I would just walk on the top of the ceiling joists right over to the area you want to get to and take a look. The insulation will fluff up a bit after you leave. You could buy a nine dollar bag of the same stuff at Lowe's or tell the home owner to, that is the least of his worries. Again that roof deck has gotten wet at some point in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert1966 Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I agree with some of the responses above, I think that the house wasn't built with a lean. I think the chimney weight has pulled or caused the wall to lean and the chimney is pulling away from the rest of the exterior stem wall framing. I would have recommended a strustural engineer to evaluate the cause further, but even more so to evauluate the need and cost of repair. Robert Welch http://www.atexinspects.com Originally posted by Mike Lamb This chimney leans out about 1/2" on a 4' level. Not as bad as the photo suggests but still noticeable. The inside wall had the same lean with some minor drywall cracks. I think the wall was built with a lean. 1964. Adjacent areas did not look stressed out. Anyway, I recommended that a qualified framing carpenter take a look and give an opinion. Would a structural engineer been more appropriate? Click to View 45.14 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lamb Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 As always, thanks for your thoughts. This is a good place to come to. My report addendum recommended a framing carpenter and/or a structural engineer take a look, and was more forceful than my field report. Anyway, something is wrong and I'm glad I noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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