Electrical Mismatch

[rbaake]

Found a mismatched compressor/breaker today.

I have a feeling the electrician is going to say it fine, just like the HVAC guys who tell me a 1 ton mismatch on a coil/compressor is ok (always call that one anyway).

Do you guys call this out?

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[AHI in AR]

I'd mention it just to let them know I looked at it. But I'd also tell them it isn't a big deal either. While I tell them it's not something that poses a real risk if it's not corrected, I also let them know that if it's still like that when THEY sell the home it could get written up again...and that inspector might make a big deal out of it. And as we all know, folks don't understand electricity so frequently anything electrical becomes a big deal to them.

In other words, have sparky correct it next time he's there doing anything else.

[Nolan Kienitz]

I always make note of it. Whether anything is ever done about it ... I just don't know.

[Charlie R]

I call it, but don't make a big deal out of it. Just always make sure that there aren't the correct size cartridge fuses in the disconnect box.

[asihi]

I put it in the report as well, especially on newer units. This is one of those things that can void a manufacturers warranty.

Tony

[plummen]

We normally size the breaker to the size of the wiring which in that case would be #10.

Very hard to find a 25A breaker,I dont recall ever seeing such a thing being readily available in the 30 years I spent in the trades.

[John Kogel]

We normally size the breaker to the size of the wiring which in that case would be #10.

Very hard to find a 25A breaker,I dont recall ever seeing such a thing being readily available in the 30 years I spent in the trades.

Someone that installs AC for a living should have a box of 25 amp breakers in the truck, I would think.

Anyone can order one here, and the price is right, under $16.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electrical ... 70768.html

I understand the logic behind installing a 30 amp breaker. And electricians will say it is there to protect the wire, not the appliance. But I would still call it out as a fault. The manufacturer wants 25 max.

[Bill Kibbel]

We normally size the breaker to the size of the wiring which in that case would be #10.

Very hard to find a 25A breaker,I dont recall ever seeing such a thing being readily available in the 30 years I spent in the trades.

25 amp breakers are readily available. The AC manufacturer can refuse a warranty claim if the breaker was not in the range they specified.

[plummen]

Originally posted by plummen

We normally size the breaker to the size of the wiring which in that case would be #10.

Very hard to find a 25A breaker,I dont recall ever seeing such a thing being readily available in the 30 years I spent in the trades.

25 amp breakers are readily available. The AC manufacturer can refuse a warranty claim if the breaker was not in the range they specified.

[/quoteBy all ]means tell me where to get them and ill let all the contractors i know.

In many areas the hvac guys are not allowed to touch wiring by city code ,it falls back on the electrician that does their work

[plummen]

Originally posted by plummen

We normally size the breaker to the size of the wiring which in that case would be #10.

Very hard to find a 25A breaker,I dont recall ever seeing such a thing being readily available in the 30 years I spent in the trades.

25 amp breakers are readily available. The AC manufacturer can refuse a warranty claim if the breaker was not in the range they specified.

[/quoteBy all ]means tell me where to get them and ill let all the contractors i know.

In many areas the hvac guys are not allowed to touch wiring by city code ,it falls back on the electrician that does their work

Once again tell me which electrical supply house has them readily available,and could you tell me what size of wire is rated for 25A?

Last time i looked #10 was rated for 30a and #12 was rated for 20a,if its such an issue why hasnt the wiring industry come out with #11 wire to solve the problem? [:-slaphap[:-slaphap[:-slaphap

[kurt]

Google. Find them.

Read up on breaker sizing for AC compressor wiring.

Then, come back in and tell us what you've found.

[plummen]

Well from what im reading about them being so readily available I figured you could rattle off the names of 5 differant supply houses that have then sitting on their shelves just waiting to be picked up! [:-monkeyd

I spent the last couple days fixing a mountain of blatantly obvious electrical/plumbing code violations that a home inspection company for a mortgage company walked right by and didnt have a clue about.

The most obvious thing he missed besides the green field snaked across all the basement walls and the kitchen sink plumbing all bootlegged together and the washing machine standpipe plumbed into the side of it was the stack of mis-matched brand 20a breakers feeding a bunch of 14g spaghetti inside the bootlegged service panel. [:-taped]

Although i must give him credit for catching the 2 missing filler covers on front of panel where the breakers were missing. [:-monkeyd

Then there was the fact that the electrical service wasnt grounded,no gfi's in the remodeled kitchen an bath room.

The waste piping under remodeled bathroom was all running uphill with no venting for fixtures.

All the exposed romex snaked through floor joists which is also illegal in omaha/douglas cty.

So please excuse my ignorance about where to walk in and find these readily available 25a breakers ive been much to busy fighting the battle against unlicensed hack artists and licensed home inspection companys in the omaha/douglas cty area,I really wish the mortgage co would give the the name of the co that did their inspection so i could post it up here!

Ive got a really good one lined up to start here in a couple weeks,ill post pictures so you can all get a good laugh! [:-monkeyd

[Jim Port]

We normally size the breaker to the size of the wiring which in that case would be #10.

Very hard to find a 25A breaker,I dont recall ever seeing such a thing being readily available in the 30 years I spent in the trades.

If you read Article 440 you may find out that you have been wasting money by installed oversized conductors.

[plummen]

Oversize conductors equal less resistance/less heat/lower voltage drop .

Are you familiar with sizing wiring for 125% of the nameplate rating especially motor driven appliances?

[plummen]

i just looked at our washing machine while in the basement.

Its label says 120v 10a,would you reccomend i run it on a #14 extension cord since 125% of the nameplate rating would still only be 12.5a and #14 is rated at 15a?

Or would you suggest that I run a 20a dedicated small appliance circuit from the panel to the plug to the dryer just like ive done with every one ive installed in the last 30 plus years?

[John Kogel]

i just looked at our washing machine while in the basement.

Its label says 120v 10a,would you reccomend i run it on a #14 extension cord since 125% of the nameplate rating would still only be 12.5a and #14 is rated at 15a?

Or would you suggest that I run a 20a dedicated small appliance circuit from the panel to the plug to the dryer just like ive done with every one ive installed in the last 30 plus years?

I don't wish to start a p--ing match here.

HVAC is different. They specify a maximum fuse rating for the equipment.

Yes, an electrician should do the install of the electrical to the AC or heat pump.

I posted a source, Home Depot. Lowes. OK, you would need to pay the retail price of $16 and add your markup.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_13321-296-HOM22 ... facetInfo=

Your local wholesaler could order them in if the demand was there. JMO.

A real home inspector does not miss the junk you mentioned in your rant. No doubt, there are some flaky characters out there that give us a bad rep.

But I think you might be saying the 30 amp breaker is a non-issue and a waste of your time? Is that right?

[plummen]

Ive never seen a 25a breaker on the shelf at home depot/lowes/menards/ace hardware...........

Im just saying that sometimes common sense has a part to play in sizing things.

Im not interested in a pi$$ing contest either im just saying sometimes theres a differance in things you read in a book and having real first hand experiance in the field installing and repairing things.

I personally have spent more years in the field doing the grunt work and fixing scewups caused by engineers than id really like to remember.

And back when I was still teaching in the plumbing apprentiship program I would actually take my classes on field trips to job sites I was working on and factorys where lots of the materials we used in the trades were actually made and or used.

Personally I had enough of people in the trades who were good at reading books and taking tests,but had absolutely no skills at actually installing or repairing things.

There are guys in omaha with journeyman plumbers licenses that have never done anything but cleaned drains,but they some how bs the plumbing board and after taking their test 5-6 times they finally get a 70% and the city gives them a license.

I know other guys that are just as good if not better than me at plumbing/wiring/hvac/boilers etc but they suck at the book work.

I personally would hire the guy whos done the work and made his way up through the trades anyday over the guy who has to read the book and look at the pictures at 2 in the morning when a customer has no heat. [^]

[Jim Port]

Since the code requires a 20 amp circuit to be installed within 6' of the intended usage for the laundry there should be not need for an extension cord.

I also believe the instruction with the washer will say not to use with an extension code so if someone did it would be a 110.3 violation. Extension codes are for temporary usage which the code defines as 90 days or less. The washer would not meet this criteria either.

Why would I install #10 for something with a 12 amp running load?

Regardless of the ease of finding the 25 amp breaker, that is what should have been installed.

[plummen]

Once again people can recite chapter and verse of the national electric code,but can they install/repair anything or explain to their customer why something works or doesnt? [:-banghea[][:-bonc01][:-bonc01]

Im gonna sign up first thing monday for one of those american home inspectors training classes so I can just recite the national electric code anytime somebody asks me a question. [:-eyebrow[:-graduat

[Jim Katen]

Once again people can recite chapter and verse of the national electric code,but can they install/repair anything or explain to their customer why something works or doesnt? [:-banghea[][:-bonc01][:-bonc01]

Oddly enough, yes, many of us can.

Im gonna sign up first thing monday for one of those american home inspectors training classes so I can just recite the national electric code anytime somebody asks me a question. [:-eyebrow[:-graduat

It certainly wouldn't hurt to improve your understanding or the code, but your'e unlikely to get such understanding from that source.

[Jim Port]

Once again people can recite chapter and verse of the national electric code,but can they install/repair anything or explain to their customer why something works or doesnt?

For some weird reason the county wanted people to have that ability before giving out Masters licenses. Why they would want you to know the rules while installing something sure is odd.

[Charlie R]

If you look at the first photo posted, the manufacturer states no bigger than a 25 amp breaker. or fuse Just above that is a line that says the minimum ampacity is 14.4. This means you can use a 25 amp breaker with #14 awg because #14 can be used with up to 15 amps. The stated ampacity is what determines the wire size, not the breaker. As far as I know (and I stand ready to be corrected) it may be the only exception to the NEC rules, and it's ok with the NEC. If you can't find a 25 amp breaker, a lot of installers put 25 amp cartridge fuses in the exterior disconnect box. Yes, you can use #12 awg or #10 awg with this as you can always have a larger than required conductor but it is more than what is required. Of course, I agree with you, using larger than required is good, at least in wiring. Also, yes, I think experience means a heck of a lot, but just because someone has done something the same way for 20 years doesn't make it right. And I just went to Home Depot, on the shelf were a GE, a Square D, and an Eaton 25 amp two pole breaker, highest price was 16.80. (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... c=1&Ntpr=1) If you need one, I'll buy it and ship it to you for a small surcharge.

[plummen]

ive never seen the 25a breakers on the shelf,ill check tomorrow if i see them i will post it here []

[Norcal]

If you look at the first photo posted, the manufacturer states no bigger than a 25 amp breaker. or fuse Just above that is a line that says the minimum ampacity is 14.4. This means you can use a 25 amp breaker with #14 awg because #14 can be used with up to 15 amps. The stated ampacity is what determines the wire size, not the breaker. As far as I know (and I stand ready to be corrected) it may be the only exception to the NEC rules, and it's ok with the NEC. If you can't find a 25 amp breaker, a lot of installers put 25 amp cartridge fuses in the exterior disconnect box. Yes, you can use #12 awg or #10 awg with this as you can always have a larger than required conductor but it is more than what is required. Of course, I agree with you, using larger than required is good, at least in wiring. Also, yes, I think experience means a heck of a lot, but just because someone has done something the same way for 20 years doesn't make it right. And I just went to Home Depot, on the shelf were a GE, a Square D, and an Eaton 25 amp two pole breaker, highest price was 16.80. (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... c=1&Ntpr=1) If you need one, I'll buy it and ship it to you for a small surcharge.

Agreed that 14 AWG & a 25A circuit breaker is code compliant, & if a 25A breaker could not be found, a fusible pullout A/C disco is cheap & then 25A fuses could be installed......

"Wire it to the minimum, overcurrent protection to the max." That is how bids are won.

[John Dirks Jr]

If you look at the first photo posted, the manufacturer states no bigger than a 25 amp breaker. or fuse Just above that is a line that says the minimum ampacity is 14.4. This means you can use a 25 amp breaker with #14 awg because #14 can be used with up to 15 amps. The stated ampacity is what determines the wire size, not the breaker. As far as I know (and I stand ready to be corrected) it may be the only exception to the NEC rules, and it's ok with the NEC. If you can't find a 25 amp breaker, a lot of installers put 25 amp cartridge fuses in the exterior disconnect box. Yes, you can use #12 awg or #10 awg with this as you can always have a larger than required conductor but it is more than what is required. Of course, I agree with you, using larger than required is good, at least in wiring. Also, yes, I think experience means a heck of a lot, but just because someone has done something the same way for 20 years doesn't make it right. And I just went to Home Depot, on the shelf were a GE, a Square D, and an Eaton 25 amp two pole breaker, highest price was 16.80. (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... c=1&Ntpr=1) If you need one, I'll buy it and ship it to you for a small surcharge.

If I saw a 14AWG wire in a circuit using a 25 amp breaker, I'd call it out. Sure, the unit might be ok with a 14AWG feeder but in that case I would want to see a 15 amp breaker protecting it. The unit label says 25 amp breaker max. That doesn't mean it's ok to to over fuse a 14AWG with a 25 amp breaker. I too stand ready to be corrected if needed.