Bonnie Trenga Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi. Just checking my dictionary on the meaning of "boilerplate" cuz I hate being wrong! It "appears to be" (ha ha) that the meaning is: "standardized, formulaic or hackneyed language." Hackneyed is not a good thing. Does anyone want to send me one of these horrible boilerplates so I can see for myself? curiouscase@hotmail.com By the way, where is the NYT review of my book, Kurt? I couldn't find it online and didn't know it was reviewed. Thanks, Kurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozofprev Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally posted by rjw I find it ironic that in a thread about writing skills, the term boilerplate has been almost entirely mis-used - it is not cruddy, bad writing reproduced ad nauseam. At least for legal documents (which our reports are, in that they may face scrutiny by legal types) boiler plate is language which has proven itself as effective and highly resistant to attack. "Boiler plate" is good. Ask your attorney if you can't just cut the boiler plate out of your contract: "It's just boiler plate, isn't it?" Crappy writing isn't the same thing. And, I believe, one element of good writing is accuracy of expression Bob, Accuracy is good. So is concision. I don't see where the term has been misused. Sure, the implication is that existing HI boilerplate is equivalent to crappy writing. The existing boilerplate produced by some large companies might well serve to make the terms 'boilerplate' and 'crappy writing' synonymous, but certainly good boilerplate has its place - the legal profession is a perfect example. Bonnie was recommending improvement of boilerplate, not its deletion. I believe a large part of improving existing boilerplate is to recognize that the audience is a homeowner who just wants to get the plain truth. And nothing but the truth. So help me home inspector. The legal documents I have seen are pretty much the opposite of what the homeowner wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozofprev Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally posted by roadguy Mike,I understand what you are saying. Wish I could say that I see your vision becoming a reality, but there is no evidence. Au contraire, Gary. I offer as evidence, on another thread in this very forum, the fact that one of the national organizations (NAHI, I believe) has sought out the ubiquitous ASTM International for aid in standardization. That, my friend, be it for the good or the bad, will definitely get the ball rolling. Standardized test methods are what separate technicians from opinion spouters. Will that improve writing/communication skills? Read anything written by the average engineer to answer that question yourself. I think not. But perhaps the inclusion of a Reporting 101 or Technical Writing class as part of HI education/continuing education requirements would do so. Folks would be more inclined to invest in that sort of education if the profession was not treated as the proverbial "red headed step-child" of the technical fields. That kind of legitimisation begins with standardization. [:-wiltel] Hmmmm, I see where that will lead to standardization, but how does that raise the bar of professionalism or intelligence within the HI community? I disagree that 'legitimate' begins with a standard. Legitimate is driven by quality and ideals, while standards are driven by money and people who just like to make rules - good ones and terrible ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadguy Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi, Bonnie What you are attempting to "fix" is not really a problem, per se, as it is a basic philosophical difference, and is as ongoing as the debate over which type of degree is "better": Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science. Those who lean toward a BS prefer the security of the concrete (read: boilerplate) language contained in a pre-packaged software program, whereas those who are more BA inclined prefer to look at it as each inspection is a document of their own creation, one that provides a little more insight than a simple "check-the-box" thing. You savvy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadguy Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi Gary, ...I see where that will lead to standardization, but how does that raise the bar of professionalism or intelligence within the HI community? I did not intend to imply that standardization alone would do so. It was more in the context of getting Mike's vision of better educated HI's via a well-planned curriculum thing. I see it this way: If national standards are published (be it by ASTM or another), and states adopt those standards, then only those who are able to understand/utilize those standards will be able to practice. Presto, instant barrier to entry. I disagree that 'legitimate' begins with a standard. Legitimate is driven by quality and ideals, while standards are driven by money and people who just like to make rules ... That is a blanket condemnation, Gary, and not at all the type of response I would say is typical of you. You know as well as I that many times the ONLY way to tell if something is legitimate is to compare it to some kind of recognized standard. I can only assume that your response is tainted by the concern that a bunch of "know-nothings-but-think-they-know-it-alls" are going to produce these standards. My experience with ASTM is that this is not usually the case, but...the only way to ensure that it doesn't happen is this: we're going to have to get in there and do some scrappin', bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Trenga Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I suppose you can guess that I'm a BA, then! As a writer/editor, not a home inspector, I don't know what ASTM is. Perhaps you could explain a bit about the process of writing your reports and your professional requirements, etc. I was under the assumption that each inspector could prepare his/her own report. Not true? I guess the upshot of my participation here is not to revolutionize an industry but to help people realize that writing doesn't have to be a dull chore. You can use anything you learn from my book to make your professional or personal writing more enjoyable to produce and more enjoyable/informative to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadguy Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi Bonnie, So you have a BA in BS, then?[] ASTM is an organization that attempts to provide standardized test methods (American Standard Test Methods) for a wide range of engineering/construction-related fields. The purpose is to, hopefully, give some kind of assurance that the materials/methods of construction employed meet a consensus standard that can be measured/evaluated by these tests. I was under the assumption that each inspector could prepare his/her own report. You are correct. Some adhere to a standard of practice (SOP) that the particular national association they belong to has outlined, others have state-mandated requirements, etc., but the actual content of the report is the responsibility of each individual. The problem is that, although there is/are building code(s) in most locales, there are literally thousands of contractors/builders/"do-it-yourself"ers who come up with their own ways of tackling various construction problems/details. This makes it virtually impossible to come up with standardized wording to address these situations when found in an inspection. You see where this is going regarding the need to communicate effectively? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Trenga Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally posted by roadguy Hi Bonnie, So you have a BA in BS, then?[] Ha. A BS in CL (comparative literature). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Trenga Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Oops, I meant a BA! Forgot to proofread myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadguy Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Ha. [:-slaphap And that right there, folks, is the epitome of concise. Just two letters...speaking volumes. Love it. I'll check out your book based simply on that response. And, no...I'm not being a facetious @$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozofprev Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally posted by roadguy I did not intend to imply that standardization alone would do so. It was more in the context of getting Mike's vision of better educated HI's via a well-planned curriculum thing. I see it this way: If national standards are published (be it by ASTM or another), and states adopt those standards, then only those who are able to understand/utilize those standards will be able to practice. Presto, instant barrier to entry. Ok, I'll go that far. Since you aren't saying a standard is a magic bullet, we're in agreement. Originally posted by ozofprevI disagree that 'legitimate' begins with a standard. Legitimate is driven by quality and ideals, while standards are driven by money and people who just like to make rules ... Originally posted by roadguyThat is a blanket condemnation, Gary, and not at all the type of response I would say is typical of you. You know as well as I that many times the ONLY way to tell if something is legitimate is to compare it to some kind of recognized standard. I can only assume that your response is tainted by the concern that a bunch of "know-nothings-but-think-they-know-it-alls" are going to produce these standards. My experience with ASTM is that this is not usually the case, but...the only way to ensure that it doesn't happen is this: we're going to have to get in there and do some scrappin', bud. Yep, you nailed it. I am tainted. One of my favorite lines - and I've used it before - is "The nice thing about standards is we have so many to choose from." But as these things go, ASTM is among the best and most established. I remember referring to their steel manuals a lot in college (back in '80). Back then, ASTM stood for American Society for Testing and Materials. They kept the letters after going international, but they don't stand for anything anymore. I'm not sure how the 'International' part of ASTM International will work with residential inspections. There is so much regional differentiation. Anyway, the blanket statement (not condemnation, sorry!) I was trying to make was this: Standards do not make a profession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 ASTM is an organization that attempts to provide standardized test methods (American Standard Test Methods) Actually the ASTM is an acronym for the former American Society for Testing and Materials, now known as ASTM International (not that it has ANYTHING to do with this thread) .... edited to acknowlege my own redundancy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Trenga Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Back to the topic at hand: for anyone who's interested, what do you want to improve in your particular writing? Why don't you send me what you think is the worst sentence in your particular report and I can suggest how to improve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally posted by Bonnie Trenga By the way, where is the NYT review of my book, Kurt? I couldn't find it online and didn't know it was reviewed. Thanks, Kurt. I don't get paper; zero paper in my house. I get NYT online w/TimesSelect which costs (about) $8 per month. I've noticed that the online version has more stuff like book reviews than the paper version. The review was several months ago; it was a feature in the "highlighted" section of the online version Home Page; you even got a graphic. You received quite favorable comments; laudatory. It's why I ran out & got the book. Boilerplate can be very useful; there's some stuff that we have to say over & over, so I agree w/Walker that it's not all hackneyed. I've got a "comment database/library" of about 850 phrases for a lot of stuff to keep me from having to type it over & over again. Specific material descriptions is where it comes in most handy; stuff like EIFS, or asbestos comments. So, why don't folks simply write gooder? Having been in the discussion w/many, many HI's, it's sort of like everything else. Each individual brings their own personal approach to the task, including writing, even though they have absolutely no education or background w/the topic. Most folks are sure that they're genetically predisposed to be good writers, and no amount of reality will take them off that position. At a report writing workshop in Florida several years ago, the presenter (Walter J.) had a couple guys go ballistic because they thought passive voice was the only "correct" method for writing anything. No amount of gentle discussion would dissuade them from their position. Why? They didn't know, but they were absolutely sure we didn't know either. It's sorta like everything else in the house biz. Everyone watches someone on TV do a remodel, so they imagine themselves to be competent builders/remodelers because they saw it on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadguy Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Standards do not make a profession. Agree wholeheartedly. However, a continuation of that sentence could read "but, professionals do set/make standards". IMHO, this should apply to the writing/communication skills as much as it does to technical ability/knowledge. Exactly how to go about accomplishing that is beyond the scope of this inspector []. I believe it is a widespread, society encompassing problem; not sure HI's are more/less afflicted than any other segment of our society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadguy Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Bonnie, dear Bonnie, If all the folks who desperately need to respond to your invitation ...send me what you think is the worst sentence in your particular report and I can suggest how to improve it. actually do so, I hope, for your sake, you have a very, very large e-mail server. [:-bigeyes Maybe you could work on a technical writing manual/guide that is in the same vein as your well-reviewed "...Missing Modifier". Is this a possibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randynavarro Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Boilerplate can be very useful; there's some stuff that we have to say over & over, so I agree w/Walker that it's not all hackneyed. I've got a "comment database/library" of about 850 phrases for a lot of stuff to keep me from having to type it over & over again. Specific material descriptions is where it comes in most handy; stuff like EIFS, or asbestos comments. Lets not call it boilerplate then. I call it autotext. And I use it to compose probably 80% of any one report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Fabry Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 It's sorta like everything else in the house biz. Everyone watches someone on TV do a remodel, so they imagine themselves to be competent builders/remodelers because they saw it on TV. Kurt, you're an obnoxious, antisocial, self important member of society. It's not about actually having the skills, it's about feeling good about the content. It's people like you who suck the self esteem from our treasured youth forcing them into a life of drugs, prostitution, and an addiction to watching professional wrestling. What can we expect from the product of a "feel good" education that leaves no student behind and where the grade inflation problem is so rampant that in an average school a 3.75 is pretty damn average. We need to actually give our students and children the TOOLS to write well: To hell with their feelings. It feels REALLY good when one absolutely knows that he's done a great job. It feels like lip service to get an A when it stands for "A"verage effort. I think we've lost the better part of a generation. We'd better get our collective shit together before we lose another one. I argued with an english teacher that taught my oldest son. I told her I didn't give a crap about his self esteem. She thought I was crude. I told her I was mechanic and that I fixed cars, and that without the proper tools for mechanics, America would come to a grinding halt. I'm pretty sure she didn't get my point. Speaking of points, I should get to mine: It's OK to be antisocial, pompous and self important. It's not OK to not know what any of that stuff means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozofprev Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Chad, let the boy get through kindergarten before you show that kind of tough love. Besides, he can always stay in a Holiday Inn Express. But you're right on the money about Kurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Trenga Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hi. Send on those sentences if you like! As far as a technical guide, not necessary: the point of Curious Case is that all writing, no matter what the subject, suffers from the same problem. So my advice applies to all kinds of subjects. And thanks, Roadguy, for saying you'll buy the book. I look forward to hearing your comments! Originally posted by roadguy Bonnie, dear Bonnie, If all the folks who desperately need to respond to your invitation ...send me what you think is the worst sentence in your particular report and I can suggest how to improve it. actually do so, I hope, for your sake, you have a very, very large e-mail server. [:-bigeyes Maybe you could work on a technical writing manual/guide that is in the same vein as your well-reviewed "...Missing Modifier". Is this a possibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Trenga Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Kurt, can't find it on the site. Any chance you could send the page/paste the link to curiouscase@hotmail.com? Thanks a bunch! I don't get paper; zero paper in my house. I get NYT online w/TimesSelect which costs (about) $8 per month. I've noticed that the online version has more stuff like book reviews than the paper version. The review was several months ago; it was a feature in the "highlighted" section of the online version Home Page; you even got a graphic. You received quite favorable comments; laudatory. It's why I ran out & got the book. Boilerplate can be very useful; there's some stuff that we have to say over & over, so I agree w/Walker that it's not all hackneyed. I've got a "comment database/library" of about 850 phrases for a lot of stuff to keep me from having to type it over & over again. Specific material descriptions is where it comes in most handy; stuff like EIFS, or asbestos comments. So, why don't folks simply write gooder? Having been in the discussion w/many, many HI's, it's sort of like everything else. Each individual brings their own personal approach to the task, including writing, even though they have absolutely no education or background w/the topic. Most folks are sure that they're genetically predisposed to be good writers, and no amount of reality will take them off that position. At a report writing workshop in Florida several years ago, the presenter (Walter J.) had a couple guys go ballistic because they thought passive voice was the only "correct" method for writing anything. No amount of gentle discussion would dissuade them from their position. Why? They didn't know, but they were absolutely sure we didn't know either. It's sorta like everything else in the house biz. Everyone watches someone on TV do a remodel, so they imagine themselves to be competent builders/remodelers because they saw it on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Originally posted by Bonnie Trenga Ha. A B[A] in CL (comparative literature). Perhaps, then, you'll favor us with a short, concise discussion of the "arc" symbolism in "Gravities Rainbow" and whether the opening line is, in fact, the first manifestation of that thematic congruence? No more, say, than two blue books, skipping lines and writing on once side of each leaf? Opps.... wrong forum TTFN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Originally posted by Bonnie Trenga Back to the topic at hand: for anyone who's interested, what do you want to improve in your particular writing? Why don't you send me what you think is the worst sentence in your particular report and I can suggest how to improve it. Well, I don't really have boilerplate. 99% of what I write is off the cuff. However, I do have a challenge for you. Here's a short handout that I wrote about FPE panels. My goal is to persuade people to replace these panels. I want it to: be persuasive anticipate opposing points of view and demolish them in advance be intersting enough to keep people engaged throughtout remain one page or less in length It's ok as it is, but I'd like it to be less choppy and dry. Any suggestions? - Jim Katen, Oregon Download Attachment: FPE_Katen_R.doc 29.65 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 At the risk of over-simplifying, I think the best way to learn how to write reasonably well is to read well-written books, often. It becomes fairly second nature after a certain point, to just know when a sentence or paragraph isn't right. I hated diagraming sentences in English class, and I still consider those hours to be among the worst-spent of my entire life. I would sooner straddle an electic fence wearing wet blue jeans than ever do that again. Passive voice is a virus. It sneaks into your reports when you're not thinking sharp and tries to spread. You think you're cured, but later it shows up again. Alas, there is no cure...only vigilance. Brian G. I R A Perfessinal Riter [^] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Trenga Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I do think that reads fairly well. You could eliminate some weak verbs and nominalizations to improve it. Perhaps you can try to rewrite it and send both versions to curiouscase@hotmail.com. Good luck! Originally posted by Jim Katen Originally posted by Bonnie Trenga Back to the topic at hand: for anyone who's interested, what do you want to improve in your particular writing? Why don't you send me what you think is the worst sentence in your particular report and I can suggest how to improve it. Well, I don't really have boilerplate. 99% of what I write is off the cuff. However, I do have a challenge for you. Here's a short handout that I wrote about FPE panels. My goal is to persuade people to replace these panels. I want it to: be persuasive anticipate opposing points of view and demolish them in advance be intersting enough to keep people engaged throughtout remain one page or less in length It's ok as it is, but I'd like it to be less choppy and dry. Any suggestions? - Jim Katen, Oregon Download Attachment: FPE_Katen_R.doc 29.65 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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