John Dirks Jr Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I have an electrician pulling a permit for the detached garage wiring. We were discussing the wiring methods. I wanted to run the #12 UF (single 120v 20amp GFI protected at the main panel) from the house to the garage in PVC conduit underground. The electrician told me the AHJ will fail it citing raceway inside a raceway. The electrician agrees that it doesn't make much sense but that's what they do in these parts. My electrician says I can run the UF exposed along the house surface and all I need is a short piece of PVC conduit to protect it where it enters or emerges from the ground. I guess he's the one familiar with how the AHJ is in this area. What are things like in your area? Are there conflicts with what NEC or IRC allow and what the AHJ allows in wiring methods such as this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Raymond Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Why pull a 3 wire feeder? My 10 x 20 shed has a 10 ga 4 wire feed. It's UF in short PVC conduit risers with ells for protection at each end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dirks Jr Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Why pull a 3 wire feeder? My 10 x 20 shed has a 10 ga 4 wire feed. It's UF in short PVC conduit risers with ells for protection at each end. Single phase 20amp circuit is all I want and all I need in my detached garage. I got a 240v in the nearby shop attached to the house for anything heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I have an electrician pulling a permit for the detached garage wiring. We were discussing the wiring methods. I wanted to run the #12 UF (single 120v 20amp GFI protected at the main panel) from the house to the garage in PVC conduit underground. The electrician told me the AHJ will fail it citing raceway inside a raceway. The electrician agrees that it doesn't make much sense but that's what they do in these parts. It's a real pain in the butt to run NM cable through a conduit for any distance. You're also likely to damage the cable. My electrician says I can run the UF exposed along the house surface and all I need is a short piece of PVC conduit to protect it where it enters or emerges from the ground. I guess he's the one familiar with how the AHJ is in this area. If you do that, the NEC requires the conduit to run from 18" below grade to the height of the exposed cable or 8', whichever is less. But that method is really cheezy anyway. Run PVC conduit and pull individual conductors through it. It's a much nicer way to do it and, if you ever need to replace the wires, it'll be a snap. Also, I think you're being penny-wise and pound foolish. Run four wires and make them #10 for future proofing. Even if you never use the extra wire or the extra diameter, you'll enjoy lower voltage drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garry Sorrells Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 What is going to happen when you want to get a welder, you will need way more than the minimal you are looking at. Pull#6 or 8 and put a panel in the garage. Its only money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brric Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Y I have an electrician pulling a permit for the detached garage wiring. We were discussing the wiring methods. I wanted to run the #12 UF (single 120v 20amp GFI protected at the main panel) from the house to the garage in PVC conduit underground. The electrician told me the AHJ will fail it citing raceway inside a raceway. The electrician agrees that it doesn't make much sense but that's what they do in these parts. It's a real pain in the butt to run NM cable through a conduit for any distance. You're also likely to damage the cable. My electrician says I can run the UF exposed along the house surface and all I need is a short piece of PVC conduit to protect it where it enters or emerges from the ground. I guess he's the one familiar with how the AHJ is in this area. If you do that, the NEC requires the conduit to run from 18" below grade to the height of the exposed cable or 8', whichever is less. But that method is really cheezy anyway. Run PVC conduit and pull individual conductors through it. It's a much nicer way to do it and, if you ever need to replace the wires, it'll be a snap. Also, I think you're being penny-wise and pound foolish. Run four wires and make them #10 for future proofing. Even if you never use the extra wire or the extra diameter, you'll enjoy lower voltage drop. Could you please post an NEC article for your 8' interpretation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plummen Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have an electrician pulling a permit for the detached garage wiring. We were discussing the wiring methods. I wanted to run the #12 UF (single 120v 20amp GFI protected at the main panel) from the house to the garage in PVC conduit underground. The electrician told me the AHJ will fail it citing raceway inside a raceway. The electrician agrees that it doesn't make much sense but that's what they do in these parts. It's a real pain in the butt to run NM cable through a conduit for any distance. You're also likely to damage the cable. My electrician says I can run the UF exposed along the house surface and all I need is a short piece of PVC conduit to protect it where it enters or emerges from the ground. I guess he's the one familiar with how the AHJ is in this area. If you do that, the NEC requires the conduit to run from 18" below grade to the height of the exposed cable or 8', whichever is less. But that method is really cheezy anyway. Run PVC conduit and pull individual conductors through it. It's a much nicer way to do it and, if you ever need to replace the wires, it'll be a snap. Also, I think you're being penny-wise and pound foolish. Run four wires and make them #10 for future proofing. Even if you never use the extra wire or the extra diameter, you'll enjoy lower voltage drop. [^][^][^][^] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Davenport Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I have an electrician pulling a permit for the detached garage wiring. We were discussing the wiring methods. I wanted to run the #12 UF (single 120v 20amp GFI protected at the main panel) from the house to the garage in PVC conduit underground. The electrician told me the AHJ will fail it citing raceway inside a raceway. The electrician agrees that it doesn't make much sense but that's what they do in these parts. My electrician says I can run the UF exposed along the house surface and all I need is a short piece of PVC conduit to protect it where it enters or emerges from the ground. I guess he's the one familiar with how the AHJ is in this area. What are things like in your area? Are there conflicts with what NEC or IRC allow and what the AHJ allows in wiring methods such as this? I'm confused- Raceway in a raceway? What your describing is not a raceway in a raceway. Are you sure your contractor is not just being lazy and not wanting to pull UF in conduit? - (sounds like it) Your county uses the NEC and there is no prohibition against what you want to do. It is done every day in that county. Maybe a call to the inspector to clarify would clear things up? My money is on your spark is trying to get out of pulling uf in conduit........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 All the raceway stuff.....I have no idea. Pulling NM or UF in conduit? Like Katen said, it's a pain in the butt and it can get darn near impossible to turn a corner. There's a very good chance of damaging the goods. The only hard part of the job is the trench; once you have the long hole, do whatever is easiest and cheapest. But, use big wire; don't go to all that trouble and stick #12 in the dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plummen Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I have an electrician pulling a permit for the detached garage wiring. We were discussing the wiring methods. I wanted to run the #12 UF (single 120v 20amp GFI protected at the main panel) from the house to the garage in PVC conduit underground. The electrician told me the AHJ will fail it citing raceway inside a raceway. The electrician agrees that it doesn't make much sense but that's what they do in these parts. My electrician says I can run the UF exposed along the house surface and all I need is a short piece of PVC conduit to protect it where it enters or emerges from the ground. I guess he's the one familiar with how the AHJ is in this area. What are things like in your area? Are there conflicts with what NEC or IRC allow and what the AHJ allows in wiring methods such as this? I'm confused- Raceway in a raceway? What your describing is not a raceway in a raceway. Are you sure your contractor is not just being lazy and not wanting to pull UF in conduit? - (sounds like it) Your county uses the NEC and there is no prohibition against what you want to do. It is done every day in that county. Maybe a call to the inspector to clarify would clear things up? My money is on your spark is trying to get out of pulling uf in conduit........ Can you show me in the nec where its legal to run uf or nm cable inside of conduit other than to shield exposed romex to a point where it terminates into a box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garry Sorrells Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Pulling wire not a real big problem, just use larger conduit. Use 2" conduit then #8 pulls like it's going through butter. The raceway inside raceway is a heat issue. The covering inside the conduit creates the concern insulation and heat dissipation. What he is saying is the UF covering is acting like a raceway the adding conduit creates a second raceway further insulating the wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Can you show me in the nec where its legal to run uf or nm cable inside of conduit other than to shield exposed romex to a point where it terminates into a box? Look at the sections ending in ".22" in any of the articles about conduit. For PVC conduit, for instance, check 352.22. For EMT it would be 358.22 and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Katen Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Could you please post an NEC article for your 8' interpretation? 300.5(D)(1) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brric Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Could you please post an NEC article for your 8' interpretation? 300.5(D)(1) Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Can you show me in the nec where its legal to run uf or nm cable inside of conduit other than to shield exposed romex to a point where it terminates into a box? Show me where it's not legal. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Davenport Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 I have an electrician pulling a permit for the detached garage wiring. We were discussing the wiring methods. I wanted to run the #12 UF (single 120v 20amp GFI protected at the main panel) from the house to the garage in PVC conduit underground. The electrician told me the AHJ will fail it citing raceway inside a raceway. The electrician agrees that it doesn't make much sense but that's what they do in these parts. My electrician says I can run the UF exposed along the house surface and all I need is a short piece of PVC conduit to protect it where it enters or emerges from the ground. I guess he's the one familiar with how the AHJ is in this area. What are things like in your area? Are there conflicts with what NEC or IRC allow and what the AHJ allows in wiring methods such as this? I'm confused- Raceway in a raceway? What your describing is not a raceway in a raceway. Are you sure your contractor is not just being lazy and not wanting to pull UF in conduit? - (sounds like it) Your county uses the NEC and there is no prohibition against what you want to do. It is done every day in that county. Maybe a call to the inspector to clarify would clear things up? My money is on your spark is trying to get out of pulling uf in conduit........ Can you show me in the nec where its legal to run uf or nm cable inside of conduit other than to shield exposed romex to a point where it terminates into a box? Keep in mind the NEC is a permissive document. If it does not state it can not be done, then it is allowed. NM cable would not be allowed to be installed in this situation as the pvc is classified a wet location. UF is allowed to be installed in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Davenport Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 Pulling wire not a real big problem, just use larger conduit. Use 2" conduit then #8 pulls like it's going through butter. The raceway inside raceway is a heat issue. The covering inside the conduit creates the concern insulation and heat dissipation. What he is saying is the UF covering is acting like a raceway the adding conduit creates a second raceway further insulating the wire. Makes absolutely no sense. UF cable is not a raceway. UF cable is allowed to be installed in conduit. If that is the inspectors reasoning he needs to be sent back to school! If the inspector is truly saying that then his supervisor needs to be called. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dirks Jr Posted October 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 I wont be getting a welder. I have a 240v feed to a compressor in the attached shop 10 feet away from the garage and the air hose stretches 50 feet. All of my other power tools are cordless Li rechargeable. What I cant do with that I'll do by hand. I need electricity for lighting, vehicle door openers, boom box and nothing more. A single 20 amp circuit is all I need. Heck, since I'm using LED exclusively for lighting, with every fixture on it will be 252 watts. That will be 18 T8 LED bulbs. I wont even come close to straining a 20 amp circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 I am with you there, John. In my area, a single 120 volt lighting circuit is allowed from the house panel to a simple junction box or light switch in the shed. I would simply go with direct burial of the correct cable with conduit where it exits and enters the buildings. In the future, it will be no major hardship to go 240 volts to a sub panel if you find the need for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dirks Jr Posted October 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 I am with you there, John. In my area, a single 120 volt lighting circuit is allowed from the house panel to a simple junction box or light switch in the shed. I would simply go with direct burial of the correct cable with conduit where it exits and enters the buildings. In the future, it will be no major hardship to go 240 volts to a sub panel if you find the need for it. I'll be doing lighting and receptacles on the same circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erby Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 What kind of mechanic doesn't have a refrigerator in his garage for the beer? [:-monkeyd[:-monkeyd[:-monkeyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kogel Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 I am with you there, John. In my area, a single 120 volt lighting circuit is allowed from the house panel to a simple junction box or light switch in the shed. I'll be doing lighting and receptacles on the same circuit. The Canadian rule which is irrelevant to you/all but a good rule is that you can have up to 16 receptacles or light fixtures on one 20 amp circuit.You might need a radio controlled helicopter that delivers beer from the house. [] Yep, Nolan, that's the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Kienitz Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 ... and here you go Enjoy [^] [utube] " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="344"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dirks Jr Posted October 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 What kind of mechanic doesn't have a refrigerator in his garage for the beer? [:-monkeyd[:-monkeyd[:-monkeyd Click to Enlarge 52.81 KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Port Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 See you have the siding on. Now for the doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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